Custom vs Catalog Cams
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Re: Custom vs Catalog Cams
And then there’s those situations where the heads are done, short block is done...... preferred cam has been installed and degreed....... v/p clearance is checked....... no room.
And no one wants to take stuff apart for additional machining to try and get it to fit...... so a new cam is ordered with the main criteria being creating more v/p clearance....... knowing full well it’s going to make less power.
It’s pretty rare for me to be involved with a build where making the absolute most power possible is at the top of the list of things most important for determining which cam to use.
And no one wants to take stuff apart for additional machining to try and get it to fit...... so a new cam is ordered with the main criteria being creating more v/p clearance....... knowing full well it’s going to make less power.
It’s pretty rare for me to be involved with a build where making the absolute most power possible is at the top of the list of things most important for determining which cam to use.
Somewhat handy with a die grinder.
Re: Custom vs Catalog Cams
We have to work around P2V, for many applications.
What I normally do, is figure out what would be the best cam, and then figure out how to change it the least, to make it fit.
I use a combination of reducing the duration, and widening the centerlines, to keep the Intake closing point, and exhaust opening point the same as the optimum cam. This effects the power less, then just decreasing the duration, or widening the heck out of the centerlines.
Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs
Denver, NC
jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
Jones Cam Designs' HotPass Vendors Forum: viewforum.php?f=44
(704)489-2449
Jones Cam Designs
Denver, NC
jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
Jones Cam Designs' HotPass Vendors Forum: viewforum.php?f=44
(704)489-2449
Re: Custom vs Catalog Cams
That’s essentially what I did.
The ex clearance was basically zero...... so unfortunately it’s likely going to end up being advanced more than we’d like, in addition to it being smaller/wider.
And it’s going in a puller, and those guys get a little unruly with the rpm..... so we want to make sure it has plenty of clearance.
I used slightly slower lobes as well.
It should be able to physically fit with adequate clearance.......but probably not exactly where I’d prefer it to be.
The ex clearance was basically zero...... so unfortunately it’s likely going to end up being advanced more than we’d like, in addition to it being smaller/wider.
And it’s going in a puller, and those guys get a little unruly with the rpm..... so we want to make sure it has plenty of clearance.
I used slightly slower lobes as well.
It should be able to physically fit with adequate clearance.......but probably not exactly where I’d prefer it to be.
Somewhat handy with a die grinder.
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Re: Custom vs Catalog Cams
I am curious how / what software others are using to do this.
Stan
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David Vizard & Stan Weiss' IOP / Flow / Induction Optimization Software
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Re: Custom vs Catalog Cams
A simulation program.SchmidtMotorWorks wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:13 pmFor engines without much selection available that makes sense.
I'm curious what makes a person stop looking at the catalogs and order a custom cam.
There is no S on the end of RPM.
Re: Custom vs Catalog Cams
I've always been a low buck, or no buck, racer.
Back in the 80's I had a speed shop sponsor so I got free Engle cams to run in my dirt car. My pit guy blew one of our 351-c's while packing the track one night. Broke the cam. I was out of cash and out of free camshafts.
So I called Chet Herbert (late at night...he never answered his phones when he was working). I told him what I was running... good performance but I was getting beat off the corners. He said "no wonder... you're running a Chevy grind!"... So he sent me one of his $50.00 regrinds. Best cam I ever had in those motors and there were few cars I couldn't beat to the flagstand.
That was my first "custom cam"...
Back in the 80's I had a speed shop sponsor so I got free Engle cams to run in my dirt car. My pit guy blew one of our 351-c's while packing the track one night. Broke the cam. I was out of cash and out of free camshafts.
So I called Chet Herbert (late at night...he never answered his phones when he was working). I told him what I was running... good performance but I was getting beat off the corners. He said "no wonder... you're running a Chevy grind!"... So he sent me one of his $50.00 regrinds. Best cam I ever had in those motors and there were few cars I couldn't beat to the flagstand.
That was my first "custom cam"...
Honored to be a member of the Luxemburg Speedway Hall of Fame Class of 2019
Re: Custom vs Catalog Cams
All of my solid roller stuff has been Herbert as has some of my friends... 0 complaints or issues.Krooser wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:51 pm I've always been a low buck, or no buck, racer.
Back in the 80's I had a speed shop sponsor so I got free Engle cams to run in my dirt car. My pit guy blew one of our 351-c's while packing the track one night. Broke the cam. I was out of cash and out of free camshafts.
So I called Chet Herbert (late at night...he never answered his phones when he was working). I told him what I was running... good performance but I was getting beat off the corners. He said "no wonder... you're running a Chevy grind!"... So he sent me one of his $50.00 regrinds. Best cam I ever had in those motors and there were few cars I couldn't beat to the flagstand.
That was my first "custom cam"...
Please Note!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!
Re: Custom vs Catalog Cams
I had one Herbert roller for a SBC.
It worked well enough, but it was way off from what the specs were.
Was supposed to be 275/285-108, measured as 280/284-106.
Lift came up about .010” shy too.
One of my customers had one in a 440 Mopar....... I had him plot it out....... it was farther off from the specs than my Chevy one was.
It worked well enough, but it was way off from what the specs were.
Was supposed to be 275/285-108, measured as 280/284-106.
Lift came up about .010” shy too.
One of my customers had one in a 440 Mopar....... I had him plot it out....... it was farther off from the specs than my Chevy one was.
Somewhat handy with a die grinder.
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Re: Custom vs Catalog Cams
Speaking of Herbert, I wonder if Ruben is still grinding cams.
All of those cams were ground with 1940's methods, tracing, offsetting and blending.
No computation involved, not even pencil and paper.
All of those cams were ground with 1940's methods, tracing, offsetting and blending.
No computation involved, not even pencil and paper.
Helping to Deliver the Promise of Flying Cars
Re: Custom vs Catalog Cams
Talk about old school Herbert sent me a cam without prepaying....I needed it for a Saturday so he just sent along an invoice.
Nick Arias sent me an extra piston (gratis) after I broke twice in one season. Got a note (said "you might need another") with the spare I had ordered.
Now that kind of service builds loyalty...
Nick Arias sent me an extra piston (gratis) after I broke twice in one season. Got a note (said "you might need another") with the spare I had ordered.
Now that kind of service builds loyalty...
Honored to be a member of the Luxemburg Speedway Hall of Fame Class of 2019
Re: Custom vs Catalog Cams
1940's .440+ cam lobes?SchmidtMotorWorks wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:02 pm Speaking of Herbert, I wonder if Ruben is still grinding cams.
All of those cams were ground with 1940's methods, tracing, offsetting and blending.
No computation involved, not even pencil and paper.
Don was the grinder I dealt with in the late 90's/2000's, lobe vs rocker ratio was exact, not sure if 7700+ rpm was 40's tec?
How many of Herbert's cams have you actually tested Jon? do you have any dyno or track data to back your claims?
Last edited by GARY C on Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Please Note!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!
Re: Custom vs Catalog Cams
Yes, not many trust worthy men left in the interweb of exspirts these days.Krooser wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:07 am Talk about old school Herbert sent me a cam without prepaying....I needed it for a Saturday so he just sent along an invoice.
Nick Arias sent me an extra piston (gratis) after I broke twice in one season. Got a note (said "you might need another") with the spare I had ordered.
Now that kind of service builds loyalty...
Please Note!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!
Re: Custom vs Catalog Cams
Not custom, but prior to running one of Jone's cams early on, I ran a Herbert CC6H in a 406 with track 1s that absolutely flew (6.40s in 2900 lbs)...for 1992.
He who is in me is greater than he who is in the world.
Re: Custom vs Catalog Cams
Ruben has been grinding all of Herbert's cams, since the 90's.GARY C wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:28 am1940's .440+ cam lobes?SchmidtMotorWorks wrote: ↑Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:02 pm Speaking of Herbert, I wonder if Ruben is still grinding cams.
All of those cams were ground with 1940's methods, tracing, offsetting and blending.
No computation involved, not even pencil and paper.
Don was the grinder I dealt with in the late 90's/2000's, lobe vs rocker ratio was exact, not sure if 7700+ rpm was 40's tec?
How many of Herbert's cams have you actually tested Jon? do you have any dyno or track data to back your claims?
It's common knowledge.
Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs
Denver, NC
jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
Jones Cam Designs' HotPass Vendors Forum: viewforum.php?f=44
(704)489-2449
Jones Cam Designs
Denver, NC
jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
Jones Cam Designs' HotPass Vendors Forum: viewforum.php?f=44
(704)489-2449
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Re: Custom vs Catalog Cams
Schmit motor works wrote:-
I'm curious what makes a person stop looking at the catalogs and order a custom cam.
A simulation program.
I stop looking at catalog cams when I find that there is not one that is on the right LCA. If Torque Master calls for say a 280/288 cam with 0.420 lobe lift on 109 LCA and I find one in the catalog then that would be what I get. If, for a BBC cam, it calls for say a 106 LCA (as is so often the case) then the best of luck trying to find a catalog that is right. Those 110-112 cams so often listed are, in a 498, down by over 40 hp and 40 lbs-ft of torque.
For my original COS cam program the data base had just about every catalog grind there was from all the reputable cam companies. Using this data bank the user could select the nearest catalog cam to the required spec.
If you feel the need to ask someones advice then make sure they have a lot of cam testing experience as the subject of gas dynamics in a high output engine are, to say the least, complex.
And by the way knowing what a successful NASCAR engine has for valve events will be little more use than satisfying your curiosity.
DV
I'm curious what makes a person stop looking at the catalogs and order a custom cam.
A simulation program.
I stop looking at catalog cams when I find that there is not one that is on the right LCA. If Torque Master calls for say a 280/288 cam with 0.420 lobe lift on 109 LCA and I find one in the catalog then that would be what I get. If, for a BBC cam, it calls for say a 106 LCA (as is so often the case) then the best of luck trying to find a catalog that is right. Those 110-112 cams so often listed are, in a 498, down by over 40 hp and 40 lbs-ft of torque.
For my original COS cam program the data base had just about every catalog grind there was from all the reputable cam companies. Using this data bank the user could select the nearest catalog cam to the required spec.
If you feel the need to ask someones advice then make sure they have a lot of cam testing experience as the subject of gas dynamics in a high output engine are, to say the least, complex.
And by the way knowing what a successful NASCAR engine has for valve events will be little more use than satisfying your curiosity.
DV
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