Custom vs Catalog Cams

[RevTheory]

Jon, are we answering your question in the manner you'd intended?

That's not a snarky comment; I'm curious to see where you're headed.

Not really.

I understand the advantages.

My question is more about the point of decision for the customer to stop looking at catalogs and order the custom cam.

What motivated the decision to fork one way vs the other?

For example, I find myself influenced by convienience more and more. I wonder how much of an influence that is, just order something at 10pm Sunday night because you know you won't have time in the day for the forseeable week to fill out a form or answer questions.

Maybe people worry about price, but don't know the difference exactly.

As Mike mentioned, need to get it quickly.

I see. My deal the last several years has been basically living vicariously through others as a consultant and in those applications (tight budget, daily-driver, mild trail riding, etc.), a run-of-the-mill shelf grind is ok, even though it bugs me.

I still push for a custom just to make Comp or Lunati or whoever actually grind it, though. Like rather than use the standard-issue 256/262 on a 112 ordered from Summit or Jeg's, I'll spec a single-pattern on a 110 thinking that they'll have to grind it rather than some bulk grinder who puts it in a box with the appropriate sticker. It's like ordering your cheeseburger without pickles so you know they didn't pull it from the rack under the heat lamp, lol. I don't know if that's accurate, though.

We're never under a time constraint either.

[CamKing]

So are you interested in looking at my combo and offering what potential ET improvement a cam change can offer? I’ve ordered a handful of custom grinds over the years from Comp, roughly half I had them spec, (used Tim Cole mostly) the others I chose from their lobe library and spec’d the centrelines.

That's my job.
Just fill this out, and I'll email you my recommendation.
http://jonescams.com/drag-race/

[RevTheory]

Hey Mike, am I wrong in thinking that places like Comp don't actually grind their shelf stuff and their grinders and good operators are reserved for custom cams?

[Joe-71]

Be wary of ordering a custom grind from Comp for a vintage engine, since I had one ground for last year's EMC engine, and when we degreed it in, it was all over the place, and when we advanced it 4*, every lobe was off. Didn't use it, went back to the Iskendarian, and it degreed in as listed on the cam card. I know you folks have been talking about newer vehicles, but some of us still drive '50s, '60s, '70s vehicles and enjoy a bit of added performance. Mike Jones has ground a camshaft for our EMC entry this year, and he found out why the Comp Cam was all over the place. He made the adjustments, and has been very committed to giving me the product as promised. Thank you Mike for going the extra distance to get the camshaft made right and in a timely manner. Joe-JDC

[PRH]

Mike Jones has ground a camshaft for our EMC entry this year, and he found out why the Comp Cam was all over the place.

Care to share?

Wrong lifter bank angle on the cam vs what the block was?

Semi-funny story.......
A friend/customer of mine used to mess with Chevy 409’s.

He had a couple of them.
One was sort of a re-ring type deal, the other one he rebuilt with an eye on performance.
He had used a Crane solid lifter cam in the first one, and was pretty happy with it...... so he got the same thing for the second one.

The rebuilt motor wasn’t quite living up to the expectations, and had an odd exhaust note on one side.
He tuned and tuned, compression tests, leak down, etc...... all to no avail.

He decided to degree every lobe.
On one side, all was good.
On the side with the odd ex note, the intake lobes were correct, but the ex lobes were 25* advanced.
Crane told him that was “impossible”, but he sent it back to them so they could check it.
They never really said what they found, but sent him a new cam...... which checked out fine.
The funny ex note went away, but the car didn’t really run all that much better.

[Dave Koehler]

PRH,
You aren't the only one to have that happen. Dragster customer had just built a new engine, same as the old engine.
Ran slower and he said that something was just off that he couldn't put his finger on.
One day he calls and said he found the cam to be Fubar.
How did you figure it out I asked.
Open zoomie header dragster.
While it was running he happened to walk behind it one evening while he was trying to figure it out.
Stop, wait, Huh? Left, right, left right.
Daaangg it's got two different 4 cylinders.
He then got the degree wheel out.
It was a different company than Crane but he got pretty much the same story.
In his case the whole left side, in and ex was off a few degrees.
I have no idea how that happened but always wondered.
2 different grinders and operators working production style or some setup error?

[Walter R. Malik]

PRH,
You aren't the only one to have that happen. Dragster customer had just built a new engine, same as the old engine.
Ran slower and he said that something was just off that he couldn't put his finger on.
One day he calls and said he found the cam to be Fubar.
How did you figure it out I asked.
Open zoomie header dragster.
While it was running he happened to walk behind it one evening while he was trying to figure it out.
Stop, wait, Huh? Left, right, left right.
Daaangg it's got two different 4 cylinders.
He then got the degree wheel out.
It was a different company than Crane but he got pretty much the same story.
In his case the whole left side, in and ex was off a few degrees.
I have no idea how that happened but always wondered.
2 different grinders and operators working production style or some setup error?

I have witnessed that very thing with a few later Buick V8 camshafts from an aftermarket source.

[GARY C]

Be wary of ordering a custom grind from Comp for a vintage engine, since I had one ground for last year's EMC engine, and when we degreed it in, it was all over the place, and when we advanced it 4*, every lobe was off. Didn't use it, went back to the Iskendarian, and it degreed in as listed on the cam card. I know you folks have been talking about newer vehicles, but some of us still drive '50s, '60s, '70s vehicles and enjoy a bit of added performance. Mike Jones has ground a camshaft for our EMC entry this year, and he found out why the Comp Cam was all over the place. He made the adjustments, and has been very committed to giving me the product as promised. Thank you Mike for going the extra distance to get the camshaft made right and in a timely manner. Joe-JDC

Interesting, considering the number of Comp cams that have won this competition, year after year... Are you sure the mistake wasn't yours?

If I am not mistaken this winning engine tested more than one Comp cam?
download/file.php?id=16866&mode=view

[CamKing]

Mike Jones has ground a camshaft for our EMC entry this year, and he found out why the Comp Cam was all over the place.

Care to share?
Wrong lifter bank angle on the cam vs what the block was?

Don't know if Comp had the same issue I had.
What I found, was that we used the wrong lifter bore angle.
Back before Al Gore invented the internet, we had these strange things called books. The reference book we used to find the lifter bore angle for the Ford Y-Block was off by 1 degree. If it was off more, we would have seen that something was wrong, when we started grinding on a semi-finished cam core, with the lobes in the correct place.
In the last 30 years, we've probably ground less then 15 Y-Block cams. Out of those ,the last one we made(for Joe), was the first one, where the customer checked more then 1 cylinder's lobe timing.
Because of the error, those Y-Block cams we ground, had the valve timing on one bank, farther advanced then the other bank.
I am presently reaching out to those customers who bought those cams, to make things right.

[PRH]

So, the semi-finished core has the lobes in the correct location, but the reference book is off by one degree in the lifter bank angle spec?
I wonder how many cams have been ground incorrectly through the years as a result.

I had UD grind an early hemi solid roller cam for me one time.
I guess there are at least two different lifter bank angles for those depending on exactly which motor it is.
Anyway, it was the wrong one for the application.
I can’t remember if that was discovered before or after they had it running.

[Joe-71]

Be wary of ordering a custom grind from Comp for a vintage engine, since I had one ground for last year's EMC engine, and when we degreed it in, it was all over the place, and when we advanced it 4*, every lobe was off. Didn't use it, went back to the Iskendarian, and it degreed in as listed on the cam card. I know you folks have been talking about newer vehicles, but some of us still drive '50s, '60s, '70s vehicles and enjoy a bit of added performance. Mike Jones has ground a camshaft for our EMC entry this year, and he found out why the Comp Cam was all over the place. He made the adjustments, and has been very committed to giving me the product as promised. Thank you Mike for going the extra distance to get the camshaft made right and in a timely manner. Joe-JDC

Interesting, considering the number of Comp cams that have won this competition, year after year... Are you sure the mistake wasn't yours?

If I am not mistaken this winning engine tested more than one Comp cam?
download/file.php?id=16866&mode=view

Well, if winning the EMC in 2016, and placing second and third in 2018 is any indication, then I guess the mistake wasn't ours. We had about 70 dyno test in 2016, and 67 in 2018 one engine, and 55 on the other engine. Been at this since 1963 in one form or another building competition engines. Joe-JDC

[Warp Speed]

Be wary of ordering a custom grind from Comp for a vintage engine, since I had one ground for last year's EMC engine, and when we degreed it in, it was all over the place, and when we advanced it 4*, every lobe was off. Didn't use it, went back to the Iskendarian, and it degreed in as listed on the cam card. I know you folks have been talking about newer vehicles, but some of us still drive '50s, '60s, '70s vehicles and enjoy a bit of added performance. Mike Jones has ground a camshaft for our EMC entry this year, and he found out why the Comp Cam was all over the place. He made the adjustments, and has been very committed to giving me the product as promised. Thank you Mike for going the extra distance to get the camshaft made right and in a timely manner. Joe-JDC

Interesting, considering the number of Comp cams that have won this competition, year after year... Are you sure the mistake wasn't yours?

If I am not mistaken this winning engine tested more than one Comp cam?
download/file.php?id=16866&mode=view

Well, if winning the EMC in 2016, and placing second and third in 2018 is any indication, then I guess the mistake wasn't ours. We had about 70 dyno test in 2016, and 67 in 2018 one engine, and 55 on the other engine. Been at this since 1963 in one form or another building competition engines. Joe-JDC

Yep, that damn Comp Cams company!
Sure seems to be the bash topic lately, in just abiut every cam thread, warranted or not!

[Walter R. Malik]

Mike Jones has ground a camshaft for our EMC entry this year, and he found out why the Comp Cam was all over the place.

Care to share?
Wrong lifter bank angle on the cam vs what the block was?

Don't know if Comp had the same issue I had.
What I found, was that we used the wrong lifter bore angle.
Back before Al Gore invented the internet, we had these strange things called books. The reference book we used to find the lifter bore angle for the Ford Y-Block was off by 1 degree. If it was off more, we would have seen that something was wrong, when we started grinding on a semi-finished cam core, with the lobes in the correct place.
In the last 30 years, we've probably ground less then 15 Y-Block cams. Out of those ,the last one we made(for Joe), was the first one, where the customer checked more then 1 cylinder's lobe timing.
Because of the error, those Y-Block cams we ground, had the valve timing on one bank, farther advanced then the other bank.
I am presently reaching out to those customers who bought those cams, to make things right.

I remember one time in the nineties that a customer brought a Chevrolet, oval track, racing V6 to be refreshed.
That camshaft was off by 9 degrees from side to side if I remember correctly.
What is funny, (weird not humorous), is that the owner was hesitant to allow me to get a correct camshaft for it because it ran so well with such a wide power band.

[Orr89rocz]

Is that how the 4 pattern cam got started?

[PRH]

It’s a dual C/L instead of a dual pattern(well...... I guess it could be both...... and probably was).

One side has the grunt, the other side has the top end.

The key before grinding the cam is deciding which bank will be the “advanced” side.

Would have made for a fun dyno test.