2020 Supra B58 Engine Teardown - First Look - Better than the 2JZ?

[Orr89rocz]

This engine is better than any engine you've ever worked with modifying. It's amazing to me that people are shitting on engines that can make so much power so easily.

There seems to be a lot of that here.

More R&D in that engine than all 1960's era muscle car engines combined (probably by many multiples).

I would expect that since its 2019 and tech is lightyears beyond back then

I am still highly impressed by the old 2jz from a performance standpoint tho

[peejay]

Unfortunately here, people poo poo things that are different, when they should be asking “why?”, “what are they trying to solve?”, “can I solve that same problem on my application?”, “can I realize a solution to increase performance?”, but nope. It’s new and “complicated”, so that means it probably sucks.

Hear hear!

Every new design was new and complicated once...

[volodkovich]

This engine is better than any engine you've ever worked with modifying. It's amazing to me that people are shitting on engines that can make so much power so easily.

That's very presumptuous of you. Stick to the facts please.
I don't see anyone in this thread shitting on this engine at all. Just questioning some of the design philosophy, which is totally fair. Lets talk about the design rather than talk about people.

I still stand by my words. Let me explain - This is a run of the mill modern passenger car engine. It's not special in its own right. One can argue that modern design and engineering is special compared to how they were done in the past, for sure. Go tear down a brand new engine from any of the large car mfg's and you'll find similar stuff. The only reason anyone has any interest in this engine is because of the Supra. This isn't even an M engine. We didn't see this hype when the B58 came out in 2016. No one was showing tear down videos of 340i engines. That's my point.

This is Speedtalk. We build race engines. Is this a true performance engine? My opinion is that it's not. Everything is done for cost, emissions and economy over performance. That's why I said I would like to see the changes for the S58 version. Turbos make performance so easy these days that the engine can be choked by emissions while still putting out decent power.

Skirted block stronger than a proper bed plate / integrated main girdle? I don't think so, there is a reason why nearly every competition engine uses this system. I can see how conventional caps would be cheaper though.

I'm not convinced the reduction in exhaust manifold volume is that important for a turbo performance engine. I believe cost and emissions is a bigger factor. The S58 version uses individual exhaust ports with a new head casting. Why would BMW do this for the M engine if the integrated manifold like the B58 is better?

No doubt the rear timing chain helps with camshaft harmonics. But its not solving anything as most engines have a front timing drive without issue. Valve lift curves on OEM engines are far from pushing the envelope. So it has been done for reasons other than performance.

[Zmechanic]

All of this is well documented. There are several Formula One white papers on this and why they were coming up with camshaft dampers, quill drives, etc... Honda has also documented how adding weight to camshafts and the timing gear reduce angular velocity changes by over 25%. This increases the rev ceiling for a given valvetrain / lobe / spring design, which obviously increases performance (and reliability).

I have on of Billy Godbold's ATEC presentations on this. When they started testing, a prostock cam varied 3600rpm peak to peak in instantaneous angular velocity and the variation was full of harmonic content ( up to 10 excursions per revolution of varying magnitudes).

[peejay]

Is this a true performance engine? My opinion is that it's not. Everything is done for cost, emissions and economy over performance.

Then there are no "true performance engines". Emissions is always a concern when designing an engine for the road. If you can make the engine inherently clean, you can make more power, so clean emissions is a valid goal for a production performance engine.

Economy is always a concern, even in racing, unless your races are very short. Any race longer than a few minutes is won in part on economy. Economy, it should be noted, is one of the ways in which the 2JZ that people keep mentioning SUCKED at. It had a lot of mass for three liters, which is good when you want to turn a 200hp engine into a 2000hp engine, but it is bad if you need to drive it on the street and keep it fed. (Supposedly this was also the reason why the Nissan RB engine was never exported to North America - the economy would have been garbage, and for the same reason - a lot of metal to warm up with not very much displacement)

Cost? Cost is ALWAYS a factor. The only cost-no-object vehicle I'm aware of was the Vector W8, where "better" always took precedence over "cost".

[volodkovich]

Then there are no "true performance engines".

Yes there are. Pull apart a BMW S1000RR engine and tell me that. But a SUV/sedan car engine with some boost ain't a performance engine just because it's in a Supra

Emissions is always a concern, Economy is always a concern, Cost is ALWAYS a factor

Of course cost, emissions and economy are a factor in any engine design. The question is how high a priority they put on performance over these factors. In this engine I say not very high. The fact they are doing a redesigned head for the S58 is some evidence that I am correct. What makes you think this is a performance engine?

[WoundUp]

This engine seems to be needlessly complicated. For example, why not just use a typical screw on oil filter? Why reinvent how the front damper attached to the crank? Timing chain in the back sounds like a bad idea when something breaks. Seems like a bunch of engineers decided to do everything different just to be different.

Join modern society and you'll see that a lot of that was already in use. They moved past using only screw on filters long ago. Rear timing chains are nothing new, either. Not sure about the damper but I'd be willing to bet they didn't invent it either.

If they continued to use 60s tech on engines, things would never progress. We'd be stuck with 16 second, 400hp cars still.

[peejay]

How does the damper attach?

I'm not going to sit through a minutes-long video when I can spend a few seconds reading or glancing at a photo.

FWIW - Volvo has the most interesting method I've seen so far, and they have been doing it since the early 1990s. The crank is threaded externally, and the damper is held on with a very large nut.

[Sparksalot]

Why weigh in about something you have no information or knowledge?

Here's your cheat sheet:

The harmonic balancer is held to the nose of the crankshaft In a peculiar way and interfaces with four cap screws.

[digger]

bolt mounting looks same as the s54 which is almost 20 years old. it had the chain drive on front though

[hoffman900]

Papadakis Racing just made over a 1000bhp on one: stock crank, forged pistons and rods, mild head clean up, and 3D printed a manifold so they can run an external intercooler and switch to port injection. They plugged the DI.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

Cost? Cost is ALWAYS a factor. The only cost-no-object vehicle I'm aware of was the Vector W8, where "better" always took precedence over "cost".

You must be thinking of a different W8 that was developed in the worst location in so cal (Wilmington), barely paid (and often didn't pay their employees) and used a tornado transaxle.

Seriously, that thing was a con-job junk pile.

A Singer 911 is closer to no cost spared.

[hoffman900]

Cost? Cost is ALWAYS a factor. The only cost-no-object vehicle I'm aware of was the Vector W8, where "better" always took precedence over "cost".

You must be thinking of a different W8 that was developed in the worst location in so cal (Wilmington), barely paid (and often didn't pay their employees) and used a tornado transaxle.

Seriously, that thing was a con-job junk pile.

A Singer 911 is closer to no cost spared.

Is Ed Pink Engines doing the engines for the Singer?

[midnightbluS10]

Is this a true performance engine? My opinion is that it's not. Everything is done for cost, emissions and economy over performance.

Then there are no "true performance engines". Emissions is always a concern when designing an engine for the road. If you can make the engine inherently clean, you can make more power, so clean emissions is a valid goal for a production performance engine.

Economy is always a concern, even in racing, unless your races are very short. Any race longer than a few minutes is won in part on economy. Economy, it should be noted, is one of the ways in which the 2JZ that people keep mentioning SUCKED at. It had a lot of mass for three liters, which is good when you want to turn a 200hp engine into a 2000hp engine, but it is bad if you need to drive it on the street and keep it fed. (Supposedly this was also the reason why the Nissan RB engine was never exported to North America - the economy would have been garbage, and for the same reason - a lot of metal to warm up with not very much displacement)

Cost? Cost is ALWAYS a factor. The only cost-no-object vehicle I'm aware of was the Vector W8, where "better" always took precedence over "cost".

I'd consider AJPE's 481x a 'true performance engine'. That's its only purpose and the reason it was built, AFAIK. Maximum performance.

Now, the rephrase what you said, there are likely no true performance OEM engines. But there are true performance engines out there in general.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

Cost? Cost is ALWAYS a factor. The only cost-no-object vehicle I'm aware of was the Vector W8, where "better" always took precedence over "cost".

You must be thinking of a different W8 that was developed in the worst location in so cal (Wilmington), barely paid (and often didn't pay their employees) and used a tornado transaxle.

Seriously, that thing was a con-job junk pile.

A Singer 911 is closer to no cost spared.

Is Ed Pink Engines doing the engines for the Singer?

I have lost track of what Rob is doing now.
I think he may have moved back to England.
That would probably be an easier place to find the specialist employees he needs.

I don't see any recent updates on his web page.

His life has been a series of outstanding life dreams come true. Possibly passing Dan Gurney.