Big power N/A LS engine discussion

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midnightbluS10
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Re: Big power N/A LS engine discussion

Post by midnightbluS10 »

GARY C wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:10 pm
midnightbluS10 wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:39 pm Bob Book uses the LS architecture to build 10k rpm 1200hp NA 400ci pro stock engines. If that's not showcasing their potential, I don't know what is. Tommy at KPE was working on one with Greg Hogue, also, I thought.





Go look at ANDRA Pro Stock racing.
My guess is that head would be very different in all design points, the counter argument to the LS being better than the other traditional platforms is that the traditional platforms with the right head and combo makes the same power in that class.

The production LS head architecture is the problem with high power NA engines just like the traditional production design.
It is. It's a 10* Dart head. That's also why I used the phrase "LS architecture". He didn't make that using stock parts, obviously. I figured you guys were mainly talking about stock-style builds comparable to a 23* SBC build but I thought I'd post it anyway.
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Re: Big power N/A LS engine discussion

Post by CGT »

Orr89rocz wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:55 pm Right. Ls7 aside, the main na advantage to lsx stuff is the factory heads whether square port or cathedral are very good, good enough for most 500-650 hp street or milder race stuff. Port stock cathedral heads go really well. Ls3 minor work does fantastic. Not having to buy heads is a big plus vs sbc

But that 700-900 na range, both need work and even out in dollars imo
Exactly. Thats why i say 750hp is gray area. I think 500 to 650 using hydraulic rollers ect they are awesome and can be inexpensive there at those levels. 750 plus...solid rollers...they start to lose some their shine and all small blocks start costing about the same.
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Re: Big power N/A LS engine discussion

Post by smeg »

LoganD wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:58 am Why would you waste your time checking valve lash and replacing valve springs when you can just put a turbo on a 5.3 and make 800 hp reliably? Turbos and EFI have killed the naturally aspirated engine if you want to go really fast.
This sort of thinking really pisses me off, twin turbo this, blower that. Bash 30+lbs up it's arse and it it so easy to make stuff go quick.
Come NA racing and lets sort the men out from the girls. seems like no one wants to be smart anymore, just add blow.
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Re: Big power N/A LS engine discussion

Post by Orr89rocz »

smeg wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:38 am
LoganD wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:58 am Why would you waste your time checking valve lash and replacing valve springs when you can just put a turbo on a 5.3 and make 800 hp reliably? Turbos and EFI have killed the naturally aspirated engine if you want to go really fast.
This sort of thinking really pisses me off, twin turbo this, blower that. Bash 30+lbs up it's arse and it it so easy to make stuff go quick.
Come NA racing and lets sort the men out from the girls. seems like no one wants to be smart anymore, just add blow.
Although boost does tend to correct for any motor issues and shortcomings in the combo, there are plenty of examples that are well thought out and well put together combinations. Guys going 7’s on stock bottom ends arent just lucky necessarily. They have a balanced combination and are good tuners. Tuning a turbo car is abit more involved when you try to manage that much cyl pressure on a setup that doesnt do well with 4 bolts per cyl in the heads lol. Plus suspension and power management of big turbo hp is a different deal than na stuff too. Then look at what guys do in limited turbo classes like ultrastreet with a single 76mm goin mid 4’s in 1/8. So its not just a fix all to throw boost at it, but you do see it in the lsx world alot guys grabbing whatever parts they can get cheap and slapping it together and making power and running half decent lol

The market is so saturated now, there are bolt on combinations for boost that have done the homework for you and get the results you want. And it aint as expensive as it used to be so thats why you are seeing more of that than big na stuff.
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Re: Big power N/A LS engine discussion

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I did a LS 408ci for my son's stock C5 about 3yrs ago. ( stock iron block) I used a Dart Pro1 cathedral port casting with my cnc port, 11to1 comp and a hyd roller cam .600 lift, Fast intake, etc and made 575rwhp. Traction limited it runs 102mph in the 1/8th on pump gas with stock 5 speed and stock C5 factory weight 3172 plus driver 210lbs ) It's not hard at all to make 700+ crank hp with the LS platform. I have a new line up of engine kits for the LS coming out soon.
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Re: Big power N/A LS engine discussion

Post by GARY C »

midnightbluS10 wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:21 pm
GARY C wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:10 pm
midnightbluS10 wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:39 pm Bob Book uses the LS architecture to build 10k rpm 1200hp NA 400ci pro stock engines. If that's not showcasing their potential, I don't know what is. Tommy at KPE was working on one with Greg Hogue, also, I thought.





Go look at ANDRA Pro Stock racing.
My guess is that head would be very different in all design points, the counter argument to the LS being better than the other traditional platforms is that the traditional platforms with the right head and combo makes the same power in that class.

The production LS head architecture is the problem with high power NA engines just like the traditional production design.
It is. It's a 10* Dart head. That's also why I used the phrase "LS architecture". He didn't make that using stock parts, obviously. I figured you guys were mainly talking about stock-style builds comparable to a 23* SBC build but I thought I'd post it anyway.
Yes I think as the aftermarket world competes to develop better heads for the general public you will see the LS NA platform expand even more.
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Re: Big power N/A LS engine discussion

Post by CGT »

One thing is, there just doesn't seem to be anything real innovative in terms of cylinder heads for LS....until you get into the super high end stuff with all dedicated parts and their too big and expensive for 99 percent of stuff. Most of them are copies of OE heads in thicker castings(I get that)....with tweaks, and some of the tweaks aren't always good ones. It would be cool to see something truly "different" in the 200 to 260 CC range..

I'm sure their plenty of marketing reasons why this doesn't happen. People being able to swap most all their stuff over from their existing stuff is likely the biggest one. WOT power wasn't the only criteria GM had to meet when developing these heads, it was probably further down the list. So why copy that head almost exactly?
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Re: Big power N/A LS engine discussion

Post by 3V Performance »

Look at Noonan, All Pro, Mast, CID etc.. Lots of nice stuff out. One thing is these darn things "stock" outflow most cubic in CFM demand suply. They are 15*-12* stock.. 350+ cfm stock. Most 427ci and smaller engines operating 7000 rpm or less don't want much more head.
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Re: Big power N/A LS engine discussion

Post by AMXstocker1 »

we run a local stock block series in a Naturally aspirated class thats production blocks only. no hardblock and no billet mains. and late model engines have to you use a production casting head port work is allowed. they can use any crank, rods, piston, cam, lifter or intake they like there is cfm limit of 950 or a 1.75x1.60 4150 style carb or throttle body and theres about a 100lb difference in running a 400inch ls,mod motor ford or gen3 hemi and a 400inch sbc or ford, sbm or amc, pontiac, buick, old school combos and i can say we haven't had anyone show up with an NA ls powered car. we do have 2 guys with carbed gen 3 hemis that do very well its actually amazing with the rules package we have 6 cars that generally run with 2 or 3 hundreths of each other. and they include a sbf a sbc 2 gen 3 hemis and a amc odly enough. not saying there aren't ls guys out there that could be dominate but one hasn't shown up yet. i just don't believe anyone puts LS and NA in the same sentence together all those guys think boost.
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Re: Big power N/A LS engine discussion

Post by prairiehotrodder »

I agree with the LS+boost statement above.

The sad part is i see tons of that stuff at the track and it never does the same thing twice. Completely unreliable and unpredictable. Also guys say its so cheap to build a LS but they don't really "build" an LS. They pull one out of a wreck and put a turbo on it and cam in it. I'd like to see one built with a carb and 750 hp NA running consistent numbers. It shouldn't be that difficult or exspensive if the heads and blocks are as good as they are supposed to be. A SBC normally needs a aftermarket block and really racy heads at that level. An LS shouldn't.
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Re: Big power N/A LS engine discussion

Post by AMXstocker1 »

We have an engine builder friend who recently built an ls for a customer and yes it was a boosted application but he said the same thing the only way there cheap is if you pull one out of a junk yard stuff a cam in it and put boost to it until it blows then repeat. If you really build one there not cheap. I would also be interested on 750-900 hp bracket style build ive seen several sbc and sbm now that make 900 around 7800-8000 being built for bracket engines and i know there not cheap engines it would be interesting to see if you could get an ls or gen 3 hemi to reproduce that type of performance for less money na.
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Re: Big power N/A LS engine discussion

Post by Orr89rocz »

Just remembered one from Bret Bauer
416 stroked ls3. Ported stock ls3 castings. CID 2 piece intake, solid roller, 13.5:1 on vp 110
Made 812 hp at 7800
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Re: Big power N/A LS engine discussion

Post by LoganD »

smeg wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:38 am
LoganD wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:58 am Why would you waste your time checking valve lash and replacing valve springs when you can just put a turbo on a 5.3 and make 800 hp reliably? Turbos and EFI have killed the naturally aspirated engine if you want to go really fast.
This sort of thinking really pisses me off, twin turbo this, blower that. Bash 30+lbs up it's arse and it it so easy to make stuff go quick.
Come NA racing and lets sort the men out from the girls. seems like no one wants to be smart anymore, just add blow.
It pisses me off too, I love building a well engineered naturally aspirated engine. The point is that for most people in the aftermarket going turbo is cheaper and easier than building a sorted naturally aspirated combo for a given ET level. It's going to take a decent amount of money and maintenance to make an LS run 9.0 @150 naturally aspirated, but you can do that falling off a log with a turbo.

Most people don't want to take the time to check valve lash all the time, or worry about getting the perfect camshaft, or worry about getting the perfect converter to take advantage of the power band. The number of people going class racing is so small that it's a very, very niche market. Most people just want to brag about running 8s, and a turbo LS or Coyote is the easiest and most reliable way to do it.
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Re: Big power N/A LS engine discussion

Post by rewguy »

Is 8 seconds with a boosted LS even "braggable" when there are hundreds of cars across the country....if not thousands.....doing it already? I personally know a few kids in their mid 20's running in the mid eights with turbo builds.....that they funded and turned the wrenches on themselves. And these kids don't even really know the basics in all honesty. ANYONE with an IQ of over 90 can put boost on an LS combination and run somewhere in the 8's. That's the problem with today in general. "Not very smart" people are interested in *impressing* other "not very smart" people.
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Re: Big power N/A LS engine discussion

Post by Orr89rocz »

Thats the problem with technology. It makes everything less impressive than it used to be. 15-20 yrs ago an 8 sec street pump gas car was rare. Hell even 10 yrs ago it was still somewhat impressive. Nowadays 7’s is the thing and 8’s doesnt raise an eyebrow. Theres probably a half dozen turbo ls combos in your local staging lanes with as much money in the entire combo as some na guys top end and running circles around them. I cant blame them

Hobbiest want bang for buck and NA builds is the worst way to go about that, but they do sound cool. Theres still a ton of street guys doing bolt ons and big cam swaps on ls factory cars. They just are 500-650 hp range not big power builds

Again, there are well thought out smart turbo people and combos out there just like an na setup. Not everyone with forced induction is sloppy mechanics.
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