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Camshaft help

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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FC-Pilot
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Camshaft help

Post by FC-Pilot » Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:32 am

Here is the backstory. So a friend of mine races in a class of circle boat that is limited to basic small block chevy’s. He is struggling to even run mid pack, but has decades of experience in circle boat racing and has a good boat. He bought a brand new engine from a local race engine builder and at best it will only turn 6100 rpm’s where his competitors are spinning 7400 with the same prop, gear and hull design. I have set up a couple boats for the class but have never built an engine for it. Being that I have never build an engine for a lift rule class or with limited intake (this one is not near as bad as what some of you dirt and asphalt guys deal with) I don’t know if he has an issue somewhere else or if it is in the engine. The basic long block was built to the spec rules but there is question regarding cam specs. What do you guys think? Is it in the ball park or way out to lunch for what he is trying to do? I am including the engine rules so you guys can see what we are working with. The other issue is he is on the east coast and I am on the west coast otherwise I could help work this stuff out with him.

55.3 Engine
55.3.1 General Notes
55.3.1.1 No titanium engine parts are allowed.
55.3.2 Block Assembly. Any GM cast iron small block or Ford cast iron Windsor small block engine block designed for general automotive
or truck use may be used. Aftermarket blocks may also be used.
55.3.3 Bore and Stroke.. Maximum Bore x Stroke is 4.065” x 3.500”
55.3.4 Crankshaft. Any aftermarket crankshaft may be used.
55.3.5 Pistons.
55.3.5.1 Only flat top pistons with valve relief(s) are permitted.
55.3.5.2 Any aftermarket pistons may be used..
55.3.6 Connecting Rods. Any aftermarket steel connecting rods may be used.
55.3.7 Cylinder Heads.
55.3.7.1 Only stock GM or Ford cylinder heads with in-line valves may be used. 55.3.7.2 No porting, polishing, or grinding is permitted in ports or combustion chambers. 55.3.7.3 Heads shall have a maximum intake runner volume of 170 cc
55.3.7.4 A maximum compression ratio of 9.5:1 only.
55.3.8 Camshaft and Valve Train 55.3.8.1 Camshafts.
59
55.3.8.1.1 Only flat tappet camshaft and lifters may be used.
55.3.8.1.2 Either hydraulic or mechanical lifters with a maximum diameter of 0.843” for GM or 0.876” for Ford may be used. 55.3.8.1.3 Maximum lift, measured at the valve, shall not exceed 0.450” (lift is to be inspected @zero lash).
55.3.8.2 Timing Chain. Use of any chain set or gear drive of dual idler design only is permitted. 55.3.8.3 Valves.
55.3.8.3.1 All steel or stainless steel valves with a minimum valve stem diameter of 11/32” with a minimum 0.340/0.341 stem diameter. Aftermarket performance valves and steel or aluminum retainers allowed.
55.3.8.3.2 Maximum diameter of intake valve is 1.945” for GM .GM 305 heads and Ford heads 1.845”. 55.3.8.3.3 Maximum diameter of exhaust valve is 1.505” for GM and 1.545” for Ford.
55.3.8.4 Valve Springs. Valve springs shall have a maximum diameter of 1.260” for GM and 1.445” for Ford with an allowable toler- ance of ±0.040”.
55.3.8.5 Rocker Arms.
55.3.8.5.1 Roller type rocker arms with a maximum ratio of 1.52 for GM or 1.60 for Ford may be used.(Lift at cam x 1.5 for
GM or 1.60 for Fords helps determine legal rocker ratios) may be used. 55.3.8.5.2 Studs and/or guide plates with 5/16” pushrods may be used.
55.3.8.6 Adjusting Nut. Any adjusting nut, posi loc, strut girdle may be used. No shaft type rocker assy 55.3.9 Intake System
55.3.9.1 Intake Manifold.
55.3.9.1.1 Any production style as cast/as produced iron or aluminum intake manifold may be used 55.3.9.1.2 Sheetmetal or tunnel ram style intake manifolds are expressly prohibited.
55.3.9.2 Other Intake System
55.3.9.2.1
55.3.9.2.2
55.3.9.2.3 55.3.10 Fuel System
A carburetor spacer is required; it shall have a minimum thickness of 0.500” (including gaskets) and a maximum thickness of 2.25” (including gaskets. The spacer may be wedge shaped, if desired, providing it fits within the above envelope. A restrictor plate, if required, shall be in addition to this thickness.
The intake manifold may be matched or blended to the carburetor spacer. Use of any intake scoop, velocity stack, and/or air cleaner is permitted.
55.3.10.1 Carburetor
55.3.10.1.1 Carburetor is to be a Holley manufactured # 4776 (all series). The center section/main body must remain stock and as furnished by Holley. The choke mechanism and related components may be removed. The air horn can be milled off. No HP center section/main body allowed. Only the following dimensions are to be inspected/measured: Primary/Secondary venturi @ 1.265/1.3275 maximum. Throttle plate bore @ 1.5675 maximum. All other modi- fications permitted.
55.3.10.1.2 Maximum venturi diameters: Primary/Secondary = 1.265”/1.3275”
55.3.10.1.3 Maximum throttle plate bore is 1.5675” 55.3.10.2 Fuel and Fuel System
55.3.10.2.1 Any pump gas may be used, including E85. See Rule 40.18.12
55.3.10.2.2 Any fuel pump is permitted 55.3.11 Ignition.
55.3.11.1 Ignition system may be either points-type system or HEI system
55.3.11.2 Electronic ignition systems are not permitted. Pertronix distributor points conversions may be used. 55.3.11.3 Any plug wires may be used.
55.3.11.4 Firing order is to be 18436572 for GM and 13726548 for Ford
55.3.12 Exhaust. Any log type manifold, individual pipes “zoomies” or standard 4 into 1 header may be used. The collector must be a standard straight style with no choke/merge type collectors allowed. Each pipe must have no more than one step/diameter change in its length, no multi step tubes allowed. Tri-Y and 180 type headers are prohibited.
55.3.13 Lubrication System.
55.3.13.1 A wet sump system with the oil pump mounted in the stock location is required. 55.3.13.2 Any oil pan is permitted
55.3.13.3 Accusump systems are permitted
55.3.14 Other Specifications
55.3.14.1 Any gasket set may be used.
55.3.14.2 Vacuum pumps are not allowed.
55.3.14.3 Use of a heavy duty/SFI flexplate or aluminum flywheel is recommended.'

Paul
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"It's a fine line between clever and stupid." David St. Hubbins

Walter R. Malik
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Re: Camshaft help

Post by Walter R. Malik » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:55 am

FC-Pilot wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:32 am
Here is the backstory. So a friend of mine races in a class of circle boat that is limited to basic small block chevy’s. He is struggling to even run mid pack, but has decades of experience in circle boat racing and has a good boat. He bought a brand new engine from a local race engine builder and at best it will only turn 6100 rpm’s where his competitors are spinning 7400 with the same prop, gear and hull design. I have set up a couple boats for the class but have never built an engine for it. Being that I have never build an engine for a lift rule class or with limited intake (this one is not near as bad as what some of you dirt and asphalt guys deal with) I don’t know if he has an issue somewhere else or if it is in the engine. The basic long block was built to the spec rules but there is question regarding cam specs. What do you guys think? Is it in the ball park or way out to lunch for what he is trying to do? I am including the engine rules so you guys can see what we are working with. The other issue is he is on the east coast and I am on the west coast otherwise I could help work this stuff out with him.

55.3 Engine
55.3.1 General Notes
55.3.1.1 No titanium engine parts are allowed.
55.3.2 Block Assembly. Any GM cast iron small block or Ford cast iron Windsor small block engine block designed for general automotive
or truck use may be used. Aftermarket blocks may also be used.
55.3.3 Bore and Stroke.. Maximum Bore x Stroke is 4.065” x 3.500”
55.3.4 Crankshaft. Any aftermarket crankshaft may be used.
55.3.5 Pistons.
55.3.5.1 Only flat top pistons with valve relief(s) are permitted.
55.3.5.2 Any aftermarket pistons may be used..
55.3.6 Connecting Rods. Any aftermarket steel connecting rods may be used.
55.3.7 Cylinder Heads.
55.3.7.1 Only stock GM or Ford cylinder heads with in-line valves may be used. 55.3.7.2 No porting, polishing, or grinding is permitted in ports or combustion chambers. 55.3.7.3 Heads shall have a maximum intake runner volume of 170 cc
55.3.7.4 A maximum compression ratio of 9.5:1 only.
55.3.8 Camshaft and Valve Train 55.3.8.1 Camshafts.
59
55.3.8.1.1 Only flat tappet camshaft and lifters may be used.
55.3.8.1.2 Either hydraulic or mechanical lifters with a maximum diameter of 0.843” for GM or 0.876” for Ford may be used. 55.3.8.1.3 Maximum lift, measured at the valve, shall not exceed 0.450” (lift is to be inspected @zero lash).
55.3.8.2 Timing Chain. Use of any chain set or gear drive of dual idler design only is permitted. 55.3.8.3 Valves.
55.3.8.3.1 All steel or stainless steel valves with a minimum valve stem diameter of 11/32” with a minimum 0.340/0.341 stem diameter. Aftermarket performance valves and steel or aluminum retainers allowed.
55.3.8.3.2 Maximum diameter of intake valve is 1.945” for GM .GM 305 heads and Ford heads 1.845”. 55.3.8.3.3 Maximum diameter of exhaust valve is 1.505” for GM and 1.545” for Ford.
55.3.8.4 Valve Springs. Valve springs shall have a maximum diameter of 1.260” for GM and 1.445” for Ford with an allowable toler- ance of ±0.040”.
55.3.8.5 Rocker Arms.
55.3.8.5.1 Roller type rocker arms with a maximum ratio of 1.52 for GM or 1.60 for Ford may be used.(Lift at cam x 1.5 for
GM or 1.60 for Fords helps determine legal rocker ratios) may be used. 55.3.8.5.2 Studs and/or guide plates with 5/16” pushrods may be used.
55.3.8.6 Adjusting Nut. Any adjusting nut, posi loc, strut girdle may be used. No shaft type rocker assy 55.3.9 Intake System
55.3.9.1 Intake Manifold.
55.3.9.1.1 Any production style as cast/as produced iron or aluminum intake manifold may be used 55.3.9.1.2 Sheetmetal or tunnel ram style intake manifolds are expressly prohibited.
55.3.9.2 Other Intake System
55.3.9.2.1
55.3.9.2.2
55.3.9.2.3 55.3.10 Fuel System
A carburetor spacer is required; it shall have a minimum thickness of 0.500” (including gaskets) and a maximum thickness of 2.25” (including gaskets. The spacer may be wedge shaped, if desired, providing it fits within the above envelope. A restrictor plate, if required, shall be in addition to this thickness.
The intake manifold may be matched or blended to the carburetor spacer. Use of any intake scoop, velocity stack, and/or air cleaner is permitted.
55.3.10.1 Carburetor
55.3.10.1.1 Carburetor is to be a Holley manufactured # 4776 (all series). The center section/main body must remain stock and as furnished by Holley. The choke mechanism and related components may be removed. The air horn can be milled off. No HP center section/main body allowed. Only the following dimensions are to be inspected/measured: Primary/Secondary venturi @ 1.265/1.3275 maximum. Throttle plate bore @ 1.5675 maximum. All other modi- fications permitted.
55.3.10.1.2 Maximum venturi diameters: Primary/Secondary = 1.265”/1.3275”
55.3.10.1.3 Maximum throttle plate bore is 1.5675” 55.3.10.2 Fuel and Fuel System
55.3.10.2.1 Any pump gas may be used, including E85. See Rule 40.18.12
55.3.10.2.2 Any fuel pump is permitted 55.3.11 Ignition.
55.3.11.1 Ignition system may be either points-type system or HEI system
55.3.11.2 Electronic ignition systems are not permitted. Pertronix distributor points conversions may be used. 55.3.11.3 Any plug wires may be used.
55.3.11.4 Firing order is to be 18436572 for GM and 13726548 for Ford
55.3.12 Exhaust. Any log type manifold, individual pipes “zoomies” or standard 4 into 1 header may be used. The collector must be a standard straight style with no choke/merge type collectors allowed. Each pipe must have no more than one step/diameter change in its length, no multi step tubes allowed. Tri-Y and 180 type headers are prohibited.
55.3.13 Lubrication System.
55.3.13.1 A wet sump system with the oil pump mounted in the stock location is required. 55.3.13.2 Any oil pan is permitted
55.3.13.3 Accusump systems are permitted
55.3.14 Other Specifications
55.3.14.1 Any gasket set may be used.
55.3.14.2 Vacuum pumps are not allowed.
55.3.14.3 Use of a heavy duty/SFI flexplate or aluminum flywheel is recommended.'

Paul
So many more things will contribute to the RPM maximum limit of an engine than simply the camshaft.
Intake manifold, headers, ignition and valve train will determine a lot of it but, a good tight lash, solid lifter camshaft is the best starting place.
I can only presume this is a prop hydro so, the cam you show is not near enough duration.
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Re: Camshaft help

Post by CamKing » Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:27 am

That cam is a little small, but not small enough, to be holding the RPM's back that much. We run a 248/256 @.050" in that class, but ours is a very tight lash(.008"/.009") so it acts about 4-6 degrees bigger then a cam with .020" lash.
If this is a "limited lift" dwell nose cam, he may not have enough open spring pressure, and could be floating the valves. With these limited lift cams, we run a spring with a high rate, so we can get 350-380# @.450" lift.
Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs

Denver, NC
jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
Jones Cam Designs' HotPass Vendors Forum: viewforum.php?f=44
(704)489-2449

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Re: Camshaft help

Post by Walter R. Malik » Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:29 pm

YES ... he will certainly need a good valve spring in any case.
We use a PAC-1201 in the "stock eliminator" engines.
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Re: Camshaft help

Post by FC-Pilot » Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:32 pm

I appreciate getting your thoughts on this guys. I had thought about springs being an issue, but he did not know the spring pressure and did not have a way to check it. It is a flat bottom v-drive class, so yes propeller driven. He said the engine builder recommended 32* of timing with pump gas. I know they were planning on heading back out with race fuel and were going to play with timing. If I remember correctly he has a victor junior for an intake. I do know many others in the class run the same intake so I did not thing about the intake as the restriction. They also tested 5 different props so it is not like they have a mismatched prop either. I will see if he can get a hold of a spring tester and post the results. Thanks again for your thoughts.

Paul
"It's a fine line between clever and stupid." David St. Hubbins

travis
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Re: Camshaft help

Post by travis » Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:58 pm

If I’m understanding the rules correctly, it sounds like a vortec head would pretty much rule this class. Unported OEM ford heads wouldn’t hardly stand a chance

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Re: Camshaft help

Post by af2 » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:36 pm

FC-Pilot wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:32 pm
I appreciate getting your thoughts on this guys. I had thought about springs being an issue, but he did not know the spring pressure and did not have a way to check it. It is a flat bottom v-drive class, so yes propeller driven. He said the engine builder recommended 32* of timing with pump gas. I know they were planning on heading back out with race fuel and were going to play with timing. If I remember correctly he has a victor junior for an intake. I do know many others in the class run the same intake so I did not thing about the intake as the restriction. They also tested 5 different props so it is not like they have a mismatched prop either. I will see if he can get a hold of a spring tester and post the results. Thanks again for your thoughts.

Paul
Paul 35 or so years ago I ran the puny 194 solid cam on a 350 dirt car that with the real Z28 springs went 7800 no problem. You guys are out of spring period!!
GURU is only a name.
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Re: Camshaft help

Post by FC-Pilot » Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:57 am

Yes the class is dominated by the Vortec heads. I know there are places to “play” within those rules, but my main concern is getting this thing to rpm. The boat owner and another boat owner/builder spent a full day testing stuff and they thought it was the cam holding them back. I recommended playing with the lash as that would point to a cam too small, but had spring pressure in the back of my head. I knew that if I bounced it off some of the heads of you guys you could give him/us some valuable feedback. For that I am greatful, thank you. All other ideas and feedback are welcome.

I may have to build one of these engines to learn what makes them run. Knowing that Mike has a cam or two in this class tells me where I would go if putting one together myself.

Paul
"It's a fine line between clever and stupid." David St. Hubbins

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Re: Camshaft help

Post by CharlieB53 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:29 pm

No doubt valve springs are required for rpm but I have a question for the cam guys.

With a lift limit would it make sense to increase cam diameter so as to enable increasing duration in the lobes.

Is there even room in an abc for a larger cam bore?

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Re: Camshaft help

Post by CamKing » Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:13 pm

CharlieB53 wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:29 pm
With a lift limit would it make sense to increase cam diameter so as to enable increasing duration in the lobes.
Cam diameter does not restrict duration. In fact, the only time you need a larger cam journal on a flat tappet, is when the cam duration is so short, for a given lift, that the nose of the lobe becomes pointy, and wears out too soon. For that same given lift, the longer the duration, the less pointy the lobe becomes.
Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs

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jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
Jones Cam Designs' HotPass Vendors Forum: viewforum.php?f=44
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Re: Camshaft help

Post by thedynoguy » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:50 am

I know I'm going to get beat up for this, but it's Monday morning and I haven't been bashed yet on the inter webs. That engine needs to go on a dyno to see what the problem is. You can throw parts at it all day long, and waste your time and money chasing the problem. There. Bash away...

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Re: Camshaft help

Post by tenxal » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:21 am

thedynoguy wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:50 am
That engine needs to go on a dyno to see what the problem is. You can throw parts at it all day long, and waste your time and money chasing the problem. There. Bash away...
Yep. =D> And I'd bring along a set of PAC 1409X's and their matching retainers or the PAC 1201's. :wink:

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Re: Camshaft help

Post by BillK » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:54 am

thedynoguy wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:50 am
That engine needs to go on a dyno to see what the problem is.
No bashing here. That is the only way to know what you have as a starting point.
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Re: Camshaft help

Post by CamKing » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:39 am

thedynoguy wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:50 am
That engine needs to go on a dyno to see what the problem is.
Agree.
Like I said, the cam is off, but not enough to be that far off on RPM.
I think it may be floating the valves, and that would be easy to check on the dyno.
Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs

Denver, NC
jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
Jones Cam Designs' HotPass Vendors Forum: viewforum.php?f=44
(704)489-2449

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Re: Camshaft help

Post by Firedome8 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:28 pm

Check pressure with a on engine pull type tester, it will get a ball park reading...

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