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Recommend me stone grits

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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AC sports
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Recommend me stone grits

Post by AC sports » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:01 am

I've decided to invest in a new rigid type hone to: correct any machine shop errors, straighten out slightly tapered/out of round bores, de-glaze and plateau finish cylinder walls.
I build a variety of vintage, mainly 4 cylinder Euro engines, for either street or historic racing. I use all sorts of ring types. Cast, Chrome, SS, as well as the newer nitrited/moly slim type supplied with forged pistons. Cylinders are almost always cast iron.
Given this is not something ill do often, i figure there is no point spending on a dedicated machine, so have been looking at the Lisle 15000 unit for use on a high torque, low speed drill.
My question is what grit stones do i need to cover the above?
Also is it acceptable to use a couple dozen strokes of a flexhone after finishing with stones, to achieve a plateau finish? I'm seeing lots of conflicting info here.

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Re: Recommend me stone grits

Post by modok » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:20 am

I'd have to ask what stones are available for it, I don't know.
I don't believe in going finer than 220 for a base finish, with the exception of moly faced rings.
Although most moly faced rings can also work great on a 220 base finish, if you plateau it. .

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Re: Recommend me stone grits

Post by modok » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:31 am

https://www.lislecorp.com/specialty-too ... inder-hone
If it was me, I'd get the 180 and 280

500 might be REALLy fine, only would use that as plateau for super skinny or moly, pre-lapped rings.

the 80 course, would only really NEED that if there is more than .003" to remove.

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Re: Recommend me stone grits

Post by AC sports » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:02 am

Since only 180 and 280 grit are available, Could i plateau a 280 grit stone finish, with a 280 or 320 grit flexhone and leave it at that for moly rings? what about conventional types? or could i plateau straight over the 180 grit?
Ive been told the flexhone will finish finer than a similar grit stone.

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Re: Recommend me stone grits

Post by modok » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:46 pm

for most applications, hone virtually all the way to size with the 180, then do a limited number of strokes with the 280, just enough to "hone the hone marks", probably only be 10-20 strokes. You can experiment and see how many strokes it takes to "get to the bottom" and then do about 1/3 of that. Kind of the same as sanding paint....how much does it take to remove all the scratches from the last step, do 1/3 of that. you want to even out the surface but NOT remove the deeper scratches.

in order to plateau with a rigid hone, the cylinder needs to be straight. Ok duh, but actually that's kinda tricky. Even to the point that when you switch stones, the pressure needs to be the same, so the distort the cylinder the same way.

The straightest a cylinder will EVER be is just after you honed it, and that's when you need to do it. IMO this gives you a surface that is better AND straighter than otherwise possible. Cannot be done tomorrow or next week.

The flex hone will follow the existing surface even if it isn't perfect, which is a good thing and a bad thing.

to make it simple, What happens with a normal singe stage finish?
180-220 is the OLD standard, and break-in sometimes took awhile, but it was, normal.
280 grit and what happened in my experience, is it broke in QUICK, but in sometimes wore out prematurely.
Sometimes if too much the hone marks are worn out it starves of lubrication, other times it's ok, really depends on the rings and the cylinder and how much it wears and how picky the rings are about lube.

I've used a flex hones and brush hones a few times, didn't like it. results were mixed. You will have to ask others for advice on those.
Doing a base finish with 220 aluminum oxide soft, then plateu with 280 silicon carbide, I have, believe it or not, 0% problems.
I mean, that's impossible, I know, for humans to have 0% problems, but so far that's how it's been, so far, out of thousands. Must be some luck involved.

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Re: Recommend me stone grits

Post by modok » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:07 pm

And that would be for d-wall or older metric width rings...... like, npr's chrome faced, or industrial HD, cast iron grant, or even Hastings moly.

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Re: Recommend me stone grits

Post by 4vpc » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:56 pm

Thanks for posting Glen. As a Pro you will probably look at the crosshatch and tell whether it is 45' or not, but as someone starting out how would you measure it?
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Re: Recommend me stone grits

Post by ProPower engines » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:33 pm

Just a suggestion but why not get a sunnen AN model of hone??
They have an infinite stone options for the industrial stones which can be had in either aluminum oxide or silicon carbide material to cover any block you will run into.
I have done several euro engines in the past and they are hard as nails. The casting and material blends used for those blocks is at the top of the list for quality and durability.

But if you look at the sunnen AN model hones that are hand held they have so many options it makes the lisle stuff look so back yard bad its not worth the time to source stones.
also Ebay is a great source for the AN style industrial stones =D>

But to recommend what stone is needed we need to know everything and more about what and who's rings you want to use.
Brand names make it easy to sort out.
And plateau brushes can be had for an AN style hone as well.
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Re: Recommend me stone grits

Post by hoodeng » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:00 pm

Both modok and ProPower are on the money. To add to the discussion,the Lisle head supplies what would be the most commonly used to effect a bore finish,the 500they have would be the closest to the old Sunnen 600 or cork polishing. Sunnen have supplied PHT tooling for many years now.

Is there a track record of your machinist supplying back work with tolerances that are not within your expectations? If you are looking to correct bore irregularities, are you going to ask the shop you use to leave stock in the bore for you to work with?
Your choice of a Lisle portable hone is less rigid than the Sunnen AN Portable in construction,although i must be honest and say i have not had experience with the Lisle.

I used to hand finish single cylinders years ago on a LBA666 Sunnen using AN600 tooling, the finish i achieved and accuracy was well within the requirement of the job i was doing, the crosshatch was something that took experience to gain as to achieve the required result that was satisfactory.
When i bought my vertical hone the idea of going back to manual stroking became the furtherest thing in my mind, the control over the cut is infinitely better than hand stroking,, dwell, short stroking, over stroke control and stroke rate [crosshatch]are a few very important features readily controlled on a vertical.These processes are what you will need to replicate if you are going to correct variable errors.

If it was possible could you borrow a hone and practicing on a scrap block? to see what you can achieve over the shops work might be a place to start, It will prove if your intended investment is prudent, or, another machine shop may give what you need.

Cheers.

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Re: Recommend me stone grits

Post by AC sports » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:48 am

Thanks for the replies guys.
Unfortunately the Sunnen AN unit is too expensive to justify, given the limited use id put it through. Even secondhand units on ebay are way overpriced in my opinion. If it was my core business then yes id invest the money.
Thanks for your replies.

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Re: Recommend me stone grits

Post by steve316 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:42 am

I bought a Sunnen AN hone years ago best investment ever.

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Re: Recommend me stone grits

Post by modok » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:51 pm

As far as the crosshatch, I'd say you can probably eyeball it and that'll be good enough. get somewhere between 30 and 45, should be fine.
One smart guy told me he uses carbon paper to press against the cylinder, and then take that out and examine the crosshatch from the imprint< I think, haven't tried it.

So far I have about 100$ invested inmy home honing setup. I just bought MY33-a45 and MY33-j65 stone sets on ebay for.......12$ a set, plus shipping.
yeah I'm bragging, :P but point is some of this odball stuff IS for sale cheap, IF you know what it is.
With a little creativity you probably could adapt sunnen stones to any hone, if you needed to

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Re: Recommend me stone grits

Post by AC sports » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:03 am

The carbon paper idea sounds smart i guess....But i think my method is Genius!...I've been known to take a pic of the walls and then stick a protractor over the scratch pattern in the pic :-)

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Re: Recommend me stone grits

Post by ProPower engines » Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:17 pm

AC sports wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:48 am
Thanks for the replies guys.
Unfortunately the Sunnen AN unit is too expensive to justify, given the limited use id put it through. Even secondhand units on ebay are way overpriced in my opinion. If it was my core business then yes id invest the money.
Thanks for your replies.
Silly way to look at it but a Lysle hone is not really a hone in the sense of the term as we use it. Its more like trying to finish hone a few thousands out of a block with a ball hone. Both have No stone control and guidance to keep the bore straight and round.

Now on ebay there is several auctions for a AN hone that do not have a buy it now but a couple with a best offer.
Again those cheapo hones were meant for a guy to just scratch up a bore to rering with no thought behind what he was doing.
It seems to me that even if a guy purchased a hone it would have a decent re-sale value down the road and for the cost of a used unit making it an investment with a good return.
Or you can just keep doing what your doing fighting with stone availability and quality for an obsolete honing method.



Rings need specific honing procedures to keep them from tearing the face of the ring off and causing oil consumption issues like those you have mentioned and the cure for that is an infinite selection of honing possibilities of the AN hone+stones
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Re: Recommend me stone grits

Post by Keith Morganstein » Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:24 pm

The Lisle 1500 hone is a rigid hard hone. It does use felts for wipers though. I have two Lisle hones for odd jobs. The standard and the small bore hone. They work fine and are also good if you need to dry hone (because of the felts) . You can hone a cylinder out as far as you like, (I honed many shovelhead cylinders to the next .010” oversize) it will produce a good job with practice. I also have a four stone set for the large hone, but seldom use them.
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