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Beehive spring performance ?

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Joe-71
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Beehive spring performance ?

Post by Joe-71 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:50 pm

For those of you who use the beehive valve springs, have you found them to have a particular rpm where they lose all control? Have you found a particular installed seat pressure that works best? Over the nose pressure? Our "roundy round" guys using the LS type springs, and PAC beehive springs are finding them to need over 170# seat and 380# + over the nose to control valve float @ ~7200 rpm. This is with 8mm hollow stem valves, and titanium retainers, roller rockers/girdles, etc. Your experience? Joe-JDC
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Re: Beehive spring performance ?

Post by engineguyBill » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:34 pm

Beehive springs work very well, although maximum RPM is somewhat limited due to the fact that these springs cannot be used in dual or triple spring configurations. There have been very comprehensive articles on valve springs in the past two issues of HOT ROD MAGAZINE. Most of the information is provided by Billy Godbold of Comp Cams and there is another article on the subject scheduled for the next issue of HRM.
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Re: Beehive spring performance ?

Post by Walter R. Malik » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:52 pm

Joe-71 wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:50 pm
For those of you who use the beehive valve springs, have you found them to have a particular rpm where they lose all control? Have you found a particular installed seat pressure that works best? Over the nose pressure? Our "roundy round" guys using the LS type springs, and PAC beehive springs are finding them to need over 170# seat and 380# + over the nose to control valve float @ ~7200 rpm. This is with 8mm hollow stem valves, and titanium retainers, roller rockers/girdles, etc. Your experience? Joe-JDC
Personally, I think the "conical" type spring is a better idea; some do use an inner spring.
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Re: Beehive spring performance ?

Post by GOSFAST » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:32 am

These "conical" springs were used in the '50's, then disappeared, then again in the '70's, disappeared again, and now.

We will build nothing with single springs any longer, unless a "class" rule dictates. There are a couple other exceptions, for instance a Flathead Ford/Merc, but that's about it.

Thanks Gary in N.Y.

P.S. In our area alone about 2 years or so back there was about 1/2 dozen brand new vehicles, variuos mfr's, with substantial engine damage caused by broken "bee-hives". I believe 2 were the newer Hemi's if I recall, all were repaired under the factory warranties.
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Re: Beehive spring performance ?

Post by CGT » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:54 pm

If used correctly I think theyre awesome. I've used them a bunch. 221438-16 Manley is the one I've primarily used. I have failed one set and I claim responsibility for that. I knew the potential outcome going into the deal. Heavy valvetrain, hydraulic roller, high rocker ratio, about .020 to .030 to coil bind, 7500rpm....worked good until it didn't, and they still didn't break, they just got deformed :lol:

But I do understand having the insurance of a double spring if shit hits the fan. I would never push a set to its limits on somebody elses stuff.
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Re: Beehive spring performance ?

Post by RW TECH » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:42 pm

My experience involves "factory" racing programs that used hydraulic roller cams with .630" lift, and beehive springs. In all cases the springs were from PSI. We achieved >8K RPM stability, with spring pressures ~135# seat, ~375# open.

The primary contributor to overall stability was the cam lobes, that were designed in-house along with revisions of that same design to add or subtract duration.

Applications included NHRA Stock/Super Stock, King Of The Hammer, Pro2 off-road trucks, and others. Never one single problem, even with the KOTH trucks that raced 2500-3000 total cumulative miles between rebuilds.

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Re: Beehive spring performance ?

Post by Joe-71 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:13 pm

We were experiencing valve float at 6500 rpm with 11/32 valve, 1.94/1.54 with CC beehive set up at 160#/394#, titanium retainers, Smith Brother's push rods, Harland Sharp roller rocker arms, tool steel lifters. Went to 5/16" valves, and increased rpm to 7100, but still nose dives. Going to dual springs next to see where the problem is. Joe-JDC
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Re: Beehive spring performance ?

Post by Mummert » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:43 pm

Can you lower the valve velocity with a lower ratio rocker for a pass or two and see if it will carry out. We've run the engines with similiar mass parts 7300-7500 with less spring pressure, 135 and 360 , 26918CC silver coated spring. If you pull the rockers off can you see star tracking on the stems to try and identify what valves are giving you problems. More than likely the intakes.
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Re: Beehive spring performance ?

Post by RW TECH » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:43 am

Joe-71 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:13 pm
We were experiencing valve float at 6500 rpm with 11/32 valve, 1.94/1.54 with CC beehive set up at 160#/394#, titanium retainers, Smith Brother's push rods, Harland Sharp roller rocker arms, tool steel lifters. Went to 5/16" valves, and increased rpm to 7100, but still nose dives. Going to dual springs next to see where the problem is. Joe-JDC
Let us know how it turns out.....In my experience things typically got worse with higher pressure and dual springs.

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Re: Beehive spring performance ?

Post by My427stang » Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:40 am

Joe, your pressures seem inline for lighter components, certainly not too high to me, in fact, I'd probably drive it to as tight as you are comfortable with coil bind and let the numbers end up where they end up. However, as someone else said, likely could be the lobe shape, I am not familiar with a Y-block base circle size, but smaller behaves worse, or additionally, don't rule out the oil

On the FE hyd rollers, which admittedly are much heavier components, we are using about 160/395 and setting up for a measured .055 bind clearance (not using comps bind number which are taller). I use just a standard steel retainer and it's happy as a clam. However, I am also only spinning them to bottom half of the 6000s with a standard travel Morel lifter. We are also very careful with cam lobe choice and have had some really good luck with some of the quieter lobes actually making good power but acting mellow

(FYI - the intake you are doing for me will be in just that setup and likely drive to 6500, a far cry from 7500, but it's using all non-special parts. Thanks again for what you are doing to support that build)

Likely late to need considering the event is here, but to me, I'd make sure you are close to bind, make sure preload is where the lifters want it, if short travel lifters, they are very very fussy on preload, and last, think about oil viscosity, I have been running 10w30 at the thickest based on Brent Lykins' initial recommendation and it's working really well with heavier components in an FE
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Re: Beehive spring performance ?

Post by GARY C » Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:05 pm

Joe-71 wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:50 pm
For those of you who use the beehive valve springs, have you found them to have a particular rpm where they lose all control? Have you found a particular installed seat pressure that works best? Over the nose pressure? Our "roundy round" guys using the LS type springs, and PAC beehive springs are finding them to need over 170# seat and 380# + over the nose to control valve float @ ~7200 rpm. This is with 8mm hollow stem valves, and titanium retainers, roller rockers/girdles, etc. Your experience? Joe-JDC
Is this a solid flat tappet cam?
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Re: Beehive spring performance ?

Post by MELWAY » Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:11 am

Joe-71 wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:50 pm
For those of you who use the beehive valve springs, have you found them to have a particular rpm where they lose all control? Have you found a particular installed seat pressure that works best? Over the nose pressure? Our "roundy round" guys using the LS type springs, and PAC beehive springs are finding them to need over 170# seat and 380# + over the nose to control valve float @ ~7200 rpm. This is with 8mm hollow stem valves, and titanium retainers, roller rockers/girdles, etc. Your experience? Joe-JDC
What family of cam profiles are being used.
I have seen on the dyno when no amount of spring pressure with fix these no ramp super aggressive HYD roller cams.
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Re: Beehive spring performance ?

Post by GM-DR » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:06 pm

Currently using Pac 1409 154#@1.79 394#@1.24-.050 to CB Valves are Ferrea 11/32 hollow stems-Retainers are Pac ultra light appx 6G Cam solid lifter flat tappet 262@.050 172@.200 .550 NET LIFT W/1.7 Rockers Trend tool steel lifters---seems to top out around 7250---thinking about changing to Pac 1409X 179#@1.79-429#@1.24 same CB

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Re: Beehive spring performance ?

Post by CamKing » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:26 pm

MELWAY wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:11 am
What family of cam profiles are being used.
I have seen on the dyno when no amount of spring pressure with fix these no ramp super aggressive HYD roller cams.
It's a mechanical flat tappet, designed just for this engine. Both profiles have opening and closing lash ramps. The fastest velocity on any of the lash ramps is.000553" per degree. Because the profiles take advantage of the 1" diameter flat followers, the max velocity is much higher then what you would see on a SB Chevy, or SB Ford.
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Re: Beehive spring performance ?

Post by David Vizard » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:32 pm

Joe-71 wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:50 pm
For those of you who use the beehive valve springs, have you found them to have a particular rpm where they lose all control? Have you found a particular installed seat pressure that works best? Over the nose pressure? Our "roundy round" guys using the LS type springs, and PAC beehive springs are finding them to need over 170# seat and 380# + over the nose to control valve float @ ~7200 rpm. This is with 8mm hollow stem valves, and titanium retainers, roller rockers/girdles, etc. Your experience? Joe-JDC
Joe,
The current CC 26918 spring is currently about my favorite street or street strip or basic C/track spring. Never had a failure since day one. Have now accumulated what must amount to several thousand hours total run time. There may still be some to learn here but my experience is to set them up so that only the top about 1-1/2 coils are short of coil bind.

Sometimes this results in seat pre-loads higher than might be needed but the spring performs best (as indicated by dyno figs) when it is run close to total coil bind.

Your spring breakage may be due to a cam with excessive jerk or jerk 2 which can come about by the grinding wheel being out of balance.(If Mike Jones did the cam this is an unlikely scenario. I go to Mike to have problems like this checked out) If this is the case then the profile itself can be very destructive to springs. In the worst case I have seen top quality springs only lasted about 2 -3 mins before loosing much of their capability force wise or even breaking.

I have also used quite a few of the PAC springs with equal success and the specials they did for my 289 vintage racer SBF were nothing short of outstanding.

I hope to be doing some hi-speed photography on the 3v's spintron in the near future. We will be testing some of the aspects that have so far been brought up. All this is projected to happen before PRI as i am supposed to have a lot of this data for my seminar on Friday starting at 2 pm finishing about 6 pm.

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