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Did Penn Grade 1 change their formula?

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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midnightbluS10
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Re: Did Penn Grade 1 change their formula?

Post by midnightbluS10 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:27 am

GARY C wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:32 am
midnightbluS10 wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:46 pm
Contact them and ask. That's the only way you'll get facts. Otherwise it's speculation and rumor and that's it. I've done it with plenty of companies. Last one was Callies. Somebody claimed they had been sold and were making stuff overseas now or some bs.


Nope. Still owned by the founder with no plans of selling to anyone at anytime. Yet there are multiple people who thought for whatever reason, maybe somebody busted their crank and got mad and was talkin shit, that Callies had been sold and was making inferior products. IMO, that's the most likely possibility. But instead of finding out the truth, they got inline and spread it around to others.


Call em. Email em. Find em on social media. Most times, they'll answer your questions. At least they do for me.
Thats assuming that they would actually tell you or that the person you would talk to actually knows if a change had been made.

How many people know the VP racing fuel was bought out be a big corporation? As a long time distributor I only found out from the driver that delivers my fuel, then confirmed it with my sales rep.

It was probably a year or so before this was even mentioned and few know or will admit to any product changes they may have taken place.
Exactly. You confirmed it with someone at the company. You didn't go to an online forum and ask what the general the consensus was with people that wouldn't have a clue. Being a distributor(any distributor, not specifically you), I wouldn't expect a person to know much of anything about the goings-on at a company. Distributors aren't part of the company technically. Why would they be 'in the know'?

That may be your single experience. As I posted, I've heard multiple rumors about multiple companies. Every time I've asked one about whatever was being said, I received a reply that matched exactly what I saw happen after that. They said 'no sale' and the company didn't sell. I asked another place about where their blocks were manufactured after everybody was convinced they were made in China. Turns out, their engines shared the same core box with a well known, American made engine block whose name I can't recall at the moment. Why do you think I suggested contacting the companies? It wasn't because no one would talk to me or tell me the asmwer to my question.

I didn't just make that stuff up.
JC -

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Re: Did Penn Grade 1 change their formula?

Post by CamKing » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:33 am

GARY C wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:19 am
From the link in the OP, I believe is from Driven Oils
A competitor takes a swipe at a company, but shows no proof.
Shocking.
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Re: Did Penn Grade 1 change their formula?

Post by hoffman900 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:36 am

GARY C wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:24 am
Looks like VP is being sued for a similar move of changing product and selling lower octane than advertised.
http://www.dragraceresults.com/fullstor ... 704&type=2

Full claim details.
http://petroleumtrends.com/Complaint_2.pdf
Changing the octane isn’t the same as a formulation change. Now if the viscosity changed, or they guarantee a certain % of certain constituents, than that is different, but other than viscosity and higher levels of phosphorus and zinc, there is nothing to stand on.

Everyone online that I can find, who have asked the company, said there is no change. Analysis is slightly different but within the expected margins, which they’re going to be from production run to production run (hence the need for a baseline for what you’re putting into the engine that day).
Last edited by hoffman900 on Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Did Penn Grade 1 change their formula?

Post by Truckedup » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:37 am

GARY C wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:19 am

I'm believing the company.
From the link in the OP, I believe is from Driven Oils
A particular additive package from Lubrizol has been favored by Brad Penn, which became DA’s Penn Grade, and Valvoline for their VR1, for their oils. This package used a sodium-based detergent which was known to be gentler, resulting in a more robust ZDDP film, but the sodium detergent has since been found to cause low speed pre-ignition, or LSPI. Coupled with the fact that this additive wasn’t a money maker for them, Lubrizol sadly discontinued this package. For those of you who follow us on Facebook, you might have seen posts in late December of 2018 and January of 2019 advising of these changes. We have since verified through oil analysis that indeed there were formulation differences forced by Lubrizol’s change to any oils that relied on this now unavailable additive package.
[/quote]

Ok, sounds reasonable ,but it's just words from a competitor....Actual lab tests might be more convincing...
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Re: Did Penn Grade 1 change their formula?

Post by hoffman900 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:39 am

Truckedup wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:37 am
GARY C wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:19 am

I'm believing the company.
From the link in the OP, I believe is from Driven Oils
A particular additive package from Lubrizol has been favored by Brad Penn, which became DA’s Penn Grade, and Valvoline for their VR1, for their oils. This package used a sodium-based detergent which was known to be gentler, resulting in a more robust ZDDP film, but the sodium detergent has since been found to cause low speed pre-ignition, or LSPI. Coupled with the fact that this additive wasn’t a money maker for them, Lubrizol sadly discontinued this package. For those of you who follow us on Facebook, you might have seen posts in late December of 2018 and January of 2019 advising of these changes. We have since verified through oil analysis that indeed there were formulation differences forced by Lubrizol’s change to any oils that relied on this now unavailable additive package.
Ok, sounds reasonable ,but it's just words from a competitor....Actual lab tests might be more convincing...
[/quote]

And lab tests are going to vary. Hell, just changing from a different well to a different well (they’re on blended, but you get my point) is going to change the additive package slightly.

Bakers know this with water. It’s all not the same and you may need to tweak a recipe to make it work. Furthermore, not all water will not produce the same end product even with tweaking of the dry ingredients, so much so, that some bakers import water from certain regions or build systems to get it to where they want.

I just see a lot of people pretending to be scientists with these oil analysis, and they don’t know what the oil should be or why. IMO.

Synthetic oil base is a lot easier to control.
-Bob

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Re: Did Penn Grade 1 change their formula?

Post by GARY C » Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:14 pm

midnightbluS10 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:27 am
GARY C wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:32 am
midnightbluS10 wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:46 pm
Contact them and ask. That's the only way you'll get facts. Otherwise it's speculation and rumor and that's it. I've done it with plenty of companies. Last one was Callies. Somebody claimed they had been sold and were making stuff overseas now or some bs.


Nope. Still owned by the founder with no plans of selling to anyone at anytime. Yet there are multiple people who thought for whatever reason, maybe somebody busted their crank and got mad and was talkin shit, that Callies had been sold and was making inferior products. IMO, that's the most likely possibility. But instead of finding out the truth, they got inline and spread it around to others.


Call em. Email em. Find em on social media. Most times, they'll answer your questions. At least they do for me.
Thats assuming that they would actually tell you or that the person you would talk to actually knows if a change had been made.

How many people know the VP racing fuel was bought out be a big corporation? As a long time distributor I only found out from the driver that delivers my fuel, then confirmed it with my sales rep.

It was probably a year or so before this was even mentioned and few know or will admit to any product changes they may have taken place.
Exactly. You confirmed it with someone at the company. You didn't go to an online forum and ask what the general the consensus was with people that wouldn't have a clue. Being a distributor(any distributor, not specifically you), I wouldn't expect a person to know much of anything about the goings-on at a company. Distributors aren't part of the company technically. Why would they be 'in the know'?

That may be your single experience. As I posted, I've heard multiple rumors about multiple companies. Every time I've asked one about whatever was being said, I received a reply that matched exactly what I saw happen after that. They said 'no sale' and the company didn't sell. I asked another place about where their blocks were manufactured after everybody was convinced they were made in China. Turns out, their engines shared the same core box with a well known, American made engine block whose name I can't recall at the moment. Why do you think I suggested contacting the companies? It wasn't because no one would talk to me or tell me the asmwer to my question.

I didn't just make that stuff up.
Never said you made it up and my point was that I only found out from someone lower in the company, not from the cooperate side that I deal with on my fuel purchases, when these company's change hands usually part of the legal agreement is that you don't tell anyone, as was the case with VP.

This is not my one time experience, I have seen it many times in the building industry where you have to have specific material on hand to meet contract agreements, then they sell the company to someone that no longer holds to that agreement and because you don't know a change is coming your left with thousands of dollars of inventory that you have no use for.
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Re: Did Penn Grade 1 change their formula?

Post by Truckedup » Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:46 pm

hoffman900 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:39 am




And lab tests are going to vary. Hell, just changing from a different well to a different well (they’re on blended, but you get my point) is going to change the additive package slightly.

Bakers know this with water. It’s all not the same and you may need to tweak a recipe to make it work. Furthermore, not all water will not produce the same end product even with tweaking of the dry ingredients, so much so, that some bakers import water from certain regions or build systems to get it to where they want.

I just see a lot of people pretending to be scientists with these oil analysis, and they don’t know what the oil should be or why. IMO.

Synthetic oil base is a lot easier to control.
Well, then there is no discussion if lab tests vary, we are not trained to understand the results if they mattered, and taking a competitors word is,well, suspect at best...I have to ask, what do you believe? :?
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Re: Did Penn Grade 1 change their formula?

Post by Rick! » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:33 pm

Racing68 wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:30 pm
https://www.pca.org/story-behind-drivens-new-gp-1-oils

Did DA Lubricants change their formula around first part of 2019? I also found some posts on YB stating that DA lubricants has stopped getting their base oil from ARG refinery and the additive package they used from Lubrizol has been discontinued. Anyone hear anything about this, I've been a Brad Penn dealer for 8 years now and need to make an order, but after seeing this i'm a little reluctant now.
Maybe get in touch with this guy. He seems to be in the know about Brad Penn/Pennrite oils.

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Re: Did Penn Grade 1 change their formula?

Post by Racing68 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:50 pm

The VP Fuels deal is exactly why i'm asking this question. I'm looking for info from engine builders with personal experience, have your oil pressures changed, noticed more wear, needing more frequent oil changes, things that engine builders notice that the average customer would not. I trust upper management as much as gas station sushi, they make you feel good now but ya might shit the bed later. Been burned by a few companies telling me one thing and doing another. I just find it strange that Driven would now be working with ARG making basically the same thing as Brad Penn after ARG sold Brad Penn just a few years ago. This line from the article is why i question it "The American Refining Group, who previously manufactured Brad Penn before selling the Penn Grade brand to DA Lubricants several years back, reached out to Driven for help in developing lubricant products for the performance market using ARG’s unique base stock." Why would they need to do this if DA Lubricants were using their base stock in performance oils already.

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Re: Did Penn Grade 1 change their formula?

Post by CamKing » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:29 pm

Rick! wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:33 pm
Racing68 wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:30 pm
https://www.pca.org/story-behind-drivens-new-gp-1-oils

Did DA Lubricants change their formula around first part of 2019? I also found some posts on YB stating that DA lubricants has stopped getting their base oil from ARG refinery and the additive package they used from Lubrizol has been discontinued. Anyone hear anything about this, I've been a Brad Penn dealer for 8 years now and need to make an order, but after seeing this i'm a little reluctant now.
Maybe get in touch with this guy. He seems to be in the know about Brad Penn/Pennrite oils.
Or just has an axe to grind. Hiding behind a username. Talks about test results, but doesn't provide said test results.
He can probably tell you who the second shooter was, on the grassy knoll
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Re: Did Penn Grade 1 change their formula?

Post by hoffman900 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:57 pm

Truckedup wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:46 pm
hoffman900 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:39 am




And lab tests are going to vary. Hell, just changing from a different well to a different well (they’re on blended, but you get my point) is going to change the additive package slightly.

Bakers know this with water. It’s all not the same and you may need to tweak a recipe to make it work. Furthermore, not all water will not produce the same end product even with tweaking of the dry ingredients, so much so, that some bakers import water from certain regions or build systems to get it to where they want.

I just see a lot of people pretending to be scientists with these oil analysis, and they don’t know what the oil should be or why. IMO.

Synthetic oil base is a lot easier to control.
Well, then there is no discussion if lab tests vary, we are not trained to understand the results if they mattered, and taking a competitors word is,well, suspect at best...I have to ask, what do you believe? :?
Oh plenty, but education helps. That wasn't a dig at you, just people online comparing and commenting on oil analysis, and having STRONG opinions on it, when they don't even know why they do.
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Re: Did Penn Grade 1 change their formula?

Post by Truckedup » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:08 am

hoffman900 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:57 pm

Oh plenty, but education helps. That wasn't a dig at you, just people online comparing and commenting on oil analysis, and having STRONG opinions on it, when they don't even know why they do.
You can go on the Bob is the oil guy forums and listen to opinions by the Internet experts...It's actually interesting that people can be so anal about the oil in their stock late model car... I had that virgin oil tested because although it's a popular speciality bike oil, it's priced less than the big brand name full ester synthetic brand names.Just curisoity..
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Re: Did Penn Grade 1 change their formula?

Post by David Redszus » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:40 am

The specific performance of a lubricant is accomplished through the use of carefully constructed
additive packages. These additives are complex packages of selected metals, each inserted
in order to accomplish some desired purpose. The quality and quantity of the additives depend
on the nature of the oil and the intended use. Typical motor oils contain 6-14% additives. The
exact structure of the hydrocarbon group affects the way in which the additive functions and,
often a given additive will perform more than one function.

In an unused oil, an high additive concentration indicates usable additive reserve. In a used oil,
a low additive concentration indicates additive depletion through usage.

Following is a list of additive metals frequently found in lubricants.

Barium
Used as a dispersant, detergent, corrosion and rust inhibitor

Boron
Anti-wear agent, anti-oxidant, used in cutting oils, greases and brake fluids,
cooling system additive

Calcium
Used as a dispersant, detergent and acid neutralizer

Magnesium
Used as a dispersant and detergent additive

Molybdenum
Anti-wear additive

Phosphorus
Anti-wear, anti-rust agent, spark-plug and combustion chamber deposit reducer

Zinc
Anti-wear & extreme pressure agent, anti-oxidant, corrosion inhibitor, detergent

Potassium
Cooling system additive, gear oil additive


Oil additive functions
Dispersant
Keeps insoluble contaminants dispersed
in the lubricant.

Detergent
Keeps metal surfaces free of deposits.
Prevents attack of metal surfaces by acid
by-products of combustion.

Rust inhibitors
Prevents corrosion and rusting of metal
parts in contact with the lubricant.

Wear inhibitors
Reduce friction and wear and prevent
scoring and seizure.

Oxidation inhibitors
Prevents the decomposition of lubricant
and additives due to oxidation.

Viscosity modifiers
Minimizes the change in viscosity due

Friction reducers
Alters the coefficient of friction.

Foam inhibitors
Prevents lubricants from forming foams.

The base stock that is used will have a substantial affect on the performance of each additive component.
Oil companies provide the base stock (sometimes) and rely on additive specialists to provide the additives which are very throughly developed and tested. It is not at all unusual for an oil brand to change their formulation as new additives are available. Many oil companies do not produce synthetic oil base stocks and must purchase them from others. Synthetic oil does not come from out of the ground. Most high performance oils (meaning they have an expensive additive package) are a blend of mineral and synthetic oil base stocks.

To the oil blender, meeting performance objectives is much more important than is maintaining specific component composition.

As a secondary issue, the lawsuit brought against VP for changing a fuel formula is total crap.
I read the complaint carefully; it was written by someone with no knowledge of race fuels.
I am in full agreement with the actions of VP and not of an ignorant distributor.

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Re: Did Penn Grade 1 change their formula?

Post by GARY C » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:59 pm

As a secondary issue, the lawsuit brought against VP for changing a fuel formula is total crap.
I read the complaint carefully; it was written by someone with no knowledge of race fuels.
I am in full agreement with the actions of VP and not of an ignorant distributor.
If they are selling 107 and claiming it is 110 then it is an issue.

I have been a distributor of theirs for 9 years and until this year I was not given an option of MTBE vs ETBE so from an ignorant distributors stand point with customers that do not want ethanol based products I am glad to see someone addressing a possible issue.

If they are guilty of the claims then they should be held responsible and the consumer should be aware If they are not then that should be published as well, so hopefully there is a follow up when all is said and done.
Please Note!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!

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Re: Did Penn Grade 1 change their formula?

Post by David Redszus » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:02 pm

GARY C wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:59 pm
As a secondary issue, the lawsuit brought against VP for changing a fuel formula is total crap.
I read the complaint carefully; it was written by someone with no knowledge of race fuels.
I am in full agreement with the actions of VP and not of an ignorant distributor.
If they are selling 107 and claiming it is 110 then it is an issue.

I have been a distributor of theirs for 9 years and until this year I was not given an option of MTBE vs ETBE so from an ignorant distributors stand point with customers that do not want ethanol based products I am glad to see someone addressing a possible issue.

If they are guilty of the claims then they should be held responsible and the consumer should be aware If they are not then that should be published as well, so hopefully there is a follow up when all is said and done.
The lawsuit against VP is total bogus. The angry distributor does not begin to understand the product that he sells. The plaintiff claims made in the suit are based on fuel folklore and a misunderstanding of the properties of fuel components. The claim that ETBE is cheaper and an inferior substitute for MTBE is laughable. Pure ignorance.

For a given fuel, the refinery provides data reflecting typical properties and a permissible range. No two batches of fuel are exactly the same and never have been. The range indicates the permissible variance of each component. The typical is the most expected formula, sometimes the average value. A serious race team would lab test each batch of fuel to determine its exact properties and to detect contamination and possible deterioration. A qualified fuel distributor would field test each batch of fuel as well.

I would enjoy testifying in court in favor of VP and against con artists and opportunists like this clown.
Let us consider the ability of a judge and/or jury to properly evaluate a complex topic like fuel chemistry.

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