Lizardracing wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:04 am
So owhats the conses here? Bushing or bearings for max life?
Do they not all fail when pressed for beyond their intended design?
My guess is most fail due to improper installation(bores size and index) or supporting parts such as the wrong spring, RPM, etc...
Everything fails, when it's pushed too hard, or ran beyond it's life expectancy.
In a well built racing engine, that is closely monitored, there's nothing wrong with needle bearings.
The advantage of bushings is when they start to wear, the lash increases, and the valvetrain gets noisy. For the lazy or ignorant engine owner, this noise will alert him, that something is wrong.
Lizardracing wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:04 am
So owhats the conses here? Bushing or bearings for max life?
Do they not all fail when pressed for beyond their intended design?
My guess is most fail due to improper installation(bores size and index) or supporting parts such as the wrong spring, RPM, etc...
Everything fails, when it's pushed too hard, or ran beyond it's life expectancy.
In a well built racing engine, that is closely monitored, there's nothing wrong with needle bearings.
The advantage of bushings is when they start to wear, the lash increases, and the valvetrain gets noisy. For the lazy or ignorant engine owner, this noise will alert him, that something is wrong.
And bushed lifters don't tend to fail catastrophically.
swampbuggy wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:59 pm
Why ? because needles in a roller lifter is not the best option and prone to fail, and this is the same reason you do not see them between the the big end of a con-rod and its crank journal. Mark H.
They've been used forever with superb reliability and durability as the rod bearings in 4 stroke motorcycles with built up cranks and nose fed oiling.
Mmmhmmmm
Is that why the service life is in hundreds of hours instead of hunreds of thoulsands of miles.
Speaking for mx bikes and speedway bikes
Everything fails, when it's pushed too hard, or ran beyond it's life expectancy.
In a well built racing engine, that is closely monitored, there's nothing wrong with needle bearings.
The advantage of bushings is when they start to wear, the lash increases, and the valvetrain gets noisy. For the lazy or ignorant engine owner, this noise will alert him, that something is wrong.
[/quote]
I recently broke a valve spring. My thought was that the bushing may take the slapping that happens better than the needles. It had to be in valve float. Not sure. But there is a reason that bushings are popular. And there is a reason that the steel on steel were developed. Mike, you sell all the above. Do you still recommend needles most of the time?
Lizardracing wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:04 am
So owhats the conses here? Bushing or bearings for max life?
Do they not all fail when pressed for beyond their intended design?
My guess is most fail due to improper installation(bores size and index) or supporting parts such as the wrong spring, RPM, etc...
Everything fails, when it's pushed too hard, or ran beyond it's life expectancy.
In a well built racing engine, that is closely monitored, there's nothing wrong with needle bearings.
The advantage of bushings is when they start to wear, the lash increases, and the valvetrain gets noisy. For the lazy or ignorant engine owner, this noise will alert him, that something is wrong.
Exactly this.
A great many of the failures that I see are due to a lack of valve control....the most extreme lobes possible, heavy stainless valves, higher RPMs, huge spring pressures, and 5/16" pushrods are what make up the valve train kits I see sold all over the internet, and people then blame the lifter when it explodes because they don't understand even it's most basic form F=MA....the bushings wear out way faster than a needle bearing setup in a properly controlled valve train, but when it does fail, it fails in totality rather than giving the dummy behind the wheel an auditory notice that something might be going away as a bushing will.
Probably not. Bushing type lifters require significantly more oil than their needle bearing counterparts. Especially with high rpm, temps and extended usage.
I dont forsee us switching anytime soon that's for sure.
Warp Speed wrote: ↑Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:32 am
Probably not. Bushing type lifters require significantly more oil than their needle bearing counterparts. Especially with high rpm, temps and extended usage.
I dont forsee us switching anytime soon that's for sure.
Listen, Jay. You can take your precision assemblies and professional work elsewhere. The real engine builders in the burnout / donut trenches with their $1000 Car Craft 500hp, LS builds know better.
Warp Speed wrote: ↑Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:32 am
Probably not. Bushing type lifters require significantly more oil than their needle bearing counterparts. Especially with high rpm, temps and extended usage.
I dont forsee us switching anytime soon that's for sure.
Listen, Jay. You can take your precision assemblies and professional work elsewhere. The real engine builders in the burnout / donut trenches with their $1000 Car Craft 500hp, LS builds know better.
(Obviously scarcasm).
How many guys running a roller lifter in a street/strip engine are worried about oil control like a NASCAR engine would require?
I will never run a needle bearing lifter again. Ever. The bit of HP loss is inconsequential compared to what happens if a lifter starts to fail.
It's silly to overlay the requirements of a NASCAR engine with a street/strip deal, bracket car or other such build.
Warp Speed wrote: ↑Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:32 am
Probably not. Bushing type lifters require significantly more oil than their needle bearing counterparts. Especially with high rpm, temps and extended usage.
I dont forsee us switching anytime soon that's for sure.
Listen, Jay. You can take your precision assemblies and professional work elsewhere. The real engine builders in the burnout / donut trenches with their $1000 Car Craft 500hp, LS builds know better.
(Obviously scarcasm).
How many guys running a roller lifter in a street/strip engine are worried about oil control like a NASCAR engine would require?
I will never run a needle bearing lifter again. Ever. The bit of HP loss is inconsequential compared to what happens if a lifter starts to fail.
It's silly to overlay the requirements of a NASCAR engine with a street/strip deal, bracket car or other such build.
To each his own, but after the testing I've done, I dont think I will ever run a bushing lifter......lol
BTW, the more you overlay the requirements of a Nascar engine, and apply the technology to a street/strip or bracket deal, the better off you'll be!
novafornow wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:46 pm
Mike, you sell all the above. Do you still recommend needles most of the time?
I recommend what I think is best for the application. Sometimes that's needle bearings. Sometimes that bushings. Sometimes that's steel-on-steel.
I'd say I sell an even amount of needle bearing, and bushing lifters. The steel-on-steel, are a distant 3rd.
Listen, Jay. You can take your precision assemblies and professional work elsewhere. The real engine builders in the burnout / donut trenches with their $1000 Car Craft 500hp, LS builds know better.
(Obviously scarcasm).
How many guys running a roller lifter in a street/strip engine are worried about oil control like a NASCAR engine would require?
I will never run a needle bearing lifter again. Ever. The bit of HP loss is inconsequential compared to what happens if a lifter starts to fail.
It's silly to overlay the requirements of a NASCAR engine with a street/strip deal, bracket car or other such build.
To each his own, but after the testing I've done, I dont think I will ever run a bushing lifter......lol
BTW, the more you overlay the requirements of a Nascar engine, and apply the technology to a street/strip or bracket deal, the better off you'll be!
I'm not disagreeing with you. In fact, I agree. The issue becomes getting Jody bopping down the block to do all, the things you can do and getting him to understand why it's worth while to do it.
So if some one is willing to do enough that I'm convinced that guy will do what he needs (most don't) to get a needle bearing lifter to live, then I'd do that. Most of the guys I deal with still think any synthetic oil is a waste money and when I tell them I use oil that costs 22 bucks a quart they flip their lid. Doesn't matter my savings in valve sprigs alone is worth that.
How many guys running a roller lifter in a street/strip engine are worried about oil control like a NASCAR engine would require?
I will never run a needle bearing lifter again. Ever. The bit of HP loss is inconsequential compared to what happens if a lifter starts to fail.
It's silly to overlay the requirements of a NASCAR engine with a street/strip deal, bracket car or other such build.
To each his own, but after the testing I've done, I dont think I will ever run a bushing lifter......lol
BTW, the more you overlay the requirements of a Nascar engine, and apply the technology to a street/strip or bracket deal, the better off you'll be!
I'm not disagreeing with you. In fact, I agree. The issue becomes getting Jody bopping down the block to do all, the things you can do and getting him to understand why it's worth while to do it.
So if some one is willing to do enough that I'm convinced that guy will do what he needs (most don't) to get a needle bearing lifter to live, then I'd do that. Most of the guys I deal with still think any synthetic oil is a waste money and when I tell them I use oil that costs 22 bucks a quart they flip their lid. Doesn't matter my savings in valve sprigs alone is worth that.
That's what I'm saying.
They don’t sound like the kind of people who would be paying the $$ for Jesel’s anyway.
How many guys running a roller lifter in a street/strip engine are worried about oil control like a NASCAR engine would require?
I will never run a needle bearing lifter again. Ever. The bit of HP loss is inconsequential compared to what happens if a lifter starts to fail.
It's silly to overlay the requirements of a NASCAR engine with a street/strip deal, bracket car or other such build.
To each his own, but after the testing I've done, I dont think I will ever run a bushing lifter......lol
BTW, the more you overlay the requirements of a Nascar engine, and apply the technology to a street/strip or bracket deal, the better off you'll be!
Thanks Warp, I will keep my Morel needle bearing lifters now
Now to overlay Nascar technology for my street/strip BBF pump gas build ...lol
swampbuggy wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:59 pm
Why ? because needles in a roller lifter is not the best option and prone to fail, and this is the same reason you do not see them between the the big end of a con-rod and its crank journal. Mark H.
I've had several Harley V twin ... all mine had/have hand-fitted needles on crank pin (rod journal) ... '54 FL also has hand-fitted needles on output shaft and pinion shaft (main journals) ... likewise all knuckleheads. Same motors also have needle bearing roller lifters.
