I'm curious what happens when an aluminum engine block with electric arc wire sprayed cylinders gets damaged bores. Are these blocks essentially disposable once the cylinder walls are damaged? -Only fit to be melted down into aluminum and cast into another block?
Can they have sleeves added? Can the electric arc iron spray be re-applied? Can these blocks be bored, re-sprayed, and honed?
Can normal, even well-equipped machine shops deal with these blocks or is this OEM-level refurbishment only?
Adam
Electric Arc Wire Sprayed Cylinder Walls and Repairs?!?
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NewbVetteGuy
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Re: Electric Arc Wire Sprayed Cylinder Walls and Repairs?!?
There are lots of engines that use aluminum blocks with some kind of wear resistant coating or surface impregnation
and they can be sleeved but if this is a full build then all bores should be sleeved because using the oEM ring on a
non treated bore can be an issue.
What engine are you working on would be a good thing to know for more repair info??
and they can be sleeved but if this is a full build then all bores should be sleeved because using the oEM ring on a
non treated bore can be an issue.
What engine are you working on would be a good thing to know for more repair info??
Real Race Cars Don't Have Doors
Re: Electric Arc Wire Sprayed Cylinder Walls and Repairs?!?
Probably any engine can be sleeved.
However, some designs have the cylinders siamesed very closely together, so close together that the sleeves would touch.,...no parent material left holding it together.....not a good idea
tho it is still possible to sleeve them......to a smaller bore size.
However, some designs have the cylinders siamesed very closely together, so close together that the sleeves would touch.,...no parent material left holding it together.....not a good idea
tho it is still possible to sleeve them......to a smaller bore size.
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NewbVetteGuy
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Re: Electric Arc Wire Sprayed Cylinder Walls and Repairs?!?
Probably any engine can be sleeved.
However, some designs have the cylinders siamesed very closely together, so close together that the sleeves would touch.,...no parent material left holding it together.....not a good idea
tho it is still possible to sleeve them......to a smaller bore size.
Great context, thanks.
-I was thinking in the back of my mind that the S58 engine in the BMW M cars now have a bore of 84mm, while the B58 engine has a bore of 82mm and they both have identically sized intake and exhaust valves @ 30.1mm / 28.5mm, so if when a sleeve WAS required going with one with the extra 2mm bore seemed to make sense, but if the bores are too close together throw that idea out the window. (I saw one engine builder state that there's no hope of putting larger intake valves on a B58 given the valve to bore spacing so I was thinking that the intake valve is probably pretty shrouded on the B58, but per the other thread, maybe that biases the intake flow towards the exhaust side of the intake valve to help with intense tumble for keeping detonation at bay?) -I'm clearly grasping at straws but trying to understand...
<Begin Rant>
Context: What BMW is doing with this super modular design engine with the B58 -same basic block for the 3 cylinder, 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder and gasoline vs. diesel engines and different power-level variants of the engines is SUPER exciting to me with a background in computer chips and seeing what modular designs and artificial product differentiation did with CPUs in the early 2000s. -It became relatively simple for hardware hackers to hack around those artificial limitations and buy the lower-end product and turn them into essentially the higher-end product, getting MUCH more performance for your buck. ("Overclocking") Intel eventually got better and making more and more significant artificial barriers between different chips sold at different price points but the early days was a gold era of performance for the $$ for people who cared.
The first cheap Intel CPUs, the "Celeron" were actually their premium Pentium 3's with a single electrical trace cut by a laser and they were then clocked slower than they'd actually run and the dual CPU capability of their "bigger brother" P3s were disabled in official bioses. We'd just use an electrical trace pen or even a graphite pencil line to reconnect the cut traces, then overclock the CPU, and load a hacked bios in a dual CPU motherboard that let you run dual CPUs and for $800 you had a $3,500 server. There were generations of CPUs that were known to be great overclockers and generations that were duds...
It sure looks like these modular engine families are doing some very similar things. The first B58s had some pretty intense fueling limitations from the HPFP and the ECU, torque limiters in the TCUs so that even if you were to make your B58 have more like S58 torque, you can't actually take advantage of it. People have hacked around the ECU limitations and now the TCU limiter and artificial shift speed limitations and BMW had to release a much higher pressure fuel system @ 350 bar to comply with new european soot regulations, which brought more physical capacity for fuel, and it all just sounds like early the early 2000s performance computer market all over again so I'm excited and I'm watching and learning, but I think the potential for making some great power at a reasonable price is certainly there. And I can't see so much of the rest of the industry not benefiting from going to very modular architectures and artificial product limitations that rely upon software locking out more performance and features and tech hackers exploiting it...
</End Rant>
Adam
However, some designs have the cylinders siamesed very closely together, so close together that the sleeves would touch.,...no parent material left holding it together.....not a good idea
tho it is still possible to sleeve them......to a smaller bore size.
Great context, thanks.
-I was thinking in the back of my mind that the S58 engine in the BMW M cars now have a bore of 84mm, while the B58 engine has a bore of 82mm and they both have identically sized intake and exhaust valves @ 30.1mm / 28.5mm, so if when a sleeve WAS required going with one with the extra 2mm bore seemed to make sense, but if the bores are too close together throw that idea out the window. (I saw one engine builder state that there's no hope of putting larger intake valves on a B58 given the valve to bore spacing so I was thinking that the intake valve is probably pretty shrouded on the B58, but per the other thread, maybe that biases the intake flow towards the exhaust side of the intake valve to help with intense tumble for keeping detonation at bay?) -I'm clearly grasping at straws but trying to understand...
<Begin Rant>
Context: What BMW is doing with this super modular design engine with the B58 -same basic block for the 3 cylinder, 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder and gasoline vs. diesel engines and different power-level variants of the engines is SUPER exciting to me with a background in computer chips and seeing what modular designs and artificial product differentiation did with CPUs in the early 2000s. -It became relatively simple for hardware hackers to hack around those artificial limitations and buy the lower-end product and turn them into essentially the higher-end product, getting MUCH more performance for your buck. ("Overclocking") Intel eventually got better and making more and more significant artificial barriers between different chips sold at different price points but the early days was a gold era of performance for the $$ for people who cared.
The first cheap Intel CPUs, the "Celeron" were actually their premium Pentium 3's with a single electrical trace cut by a laser and they were then clocked slower than they'd actually run and the dual CPU capability of their "bigger brother" P3s were disabled in official bioses. We'd just use an electrical trace pen or even a graphite pencil line to reconnect the cut traces, then overclock the CPU, and load a hacked bios in a dual CPU motherboard that let you run dual CPUs and for $800 you had a $3,500 server. There were generations of CPUs that were known to be great overclockers and generations that were duds...
It sure looks like these modular engine families are doing some very similar things. The first B58s had some pretty intense fueling limitations from the HPFP and the ECU, torque limiters in the TCUs so that even if you were to make your B58 have more like S58 torque, you can't actually take advantage of it. People have hacked around the ECU limitations and now the TCU limiter and artificial shift speed limitations and BMW had to release a much higher pressure fuel system @ 350 bar to comply with new european soot regulations, which brought more physical capacity for fuel, and it all just sounds like early the early 2000s performance computer market all over again so I'm excited and I'm watching and learning, but I think the potential for making some great power at a reasonable price is certainly there. And I can't see so much of the rest of the industry not benefiting from going to very modular architectures and artificial product limitations that rely upon software locking out more performance and features and tech hackers exploiting it...
</End Rant>
Adam
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Rowdy Yates
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Re: Electric Arc Wire Sprayed Cylinder Walls and Repairs?!?
Talk to Steve @ RED for options. Asked about this same ? for use with other engines as 1 particular Ford 5.4 used a similar special type liner.
http://www.raceenginedevelopment.com/#home_services
http://www.raceenginedevelopment.com/#home_services
Re: Electric Arc Wire Sprayed Cylinder Walls and Repairs?!?
Many engine families have different displacements with the same bore spacing and so on.
A press fit sleeve can't ever be stronger than a plated bore or a CAST-in liner, BUT the way I see it, you can take advantage of the OE parts out there and always use the BIGGEST and strongest block available, and adjust bore size and stroke to the displacement you need.
To use chevy small block for example, It makes sense to ME to take a 400 block and sleeve it down to a smaller bore size, you'd get a VERY sturdy block. Take a 350 block bore through to water and sleeve it UP to a larger bore size, you get a weak wobbly mess.
Same with subaru 2.0/2.5, same with cummins 5.9/6.7, there are many others. POTENTIAL heavy duty blocks.
But as we've discussed before, also many OE's with the bore sizes already maxxed out, so much that you can't even bore them out at all, because the wall thickness is at the practical minimum from the start.
A press fit sleeve can't ever be stronger than a plated bore or a CAST-in liner, BUT the way I see it, you can take advantage of the OE parts out there and always use the BIGGEST and strongest block available, and adjust bore size and stroke to the displacement you need.
To use chevy small block for example, It makes sense to ME to take a 400 block and sleeve it down to a smaller bore size, you'd get a VERY sturdy block. Take a 350 block bore through to water and sleeve it UP to a larger bore size, you get a weak wobbly mess.
Same with subaru 2.0/2.5, same with cummins 5.9/6.7, there are many others. POTENTIAL heavy duty blocks.
But as we've discussed before, also many OE's with the bore sizes already maxxed out, so much that you can't even bore them out at all, because the wall thickness is at the practical minimum from the start.
Re: Electric Arc Wire Sprayed Cylinder Walls and Repairs?!?
Except for exceptionally rare engines, it's generally cheaper to just get another block.
Audi guys have been running into this for years with the V8 engines, which are "non rebuildable". There are people reasearching how to refinish the bores, but interest is low because the demand is low, and what demand there is can be supplied by buying entire cars for the engine cheaper than it'd cost to refinish an old block.
Audi guys have been running into this for years with the V8 engines, which are "non rebuildable". There are people reasearching how to refinish the bores, but interest is low because the demand is low, and what demand there is can be supplied by buying entire cars for the engine cheaper than it'd cost to refinish an old block.