when are 3/4 grooved main bearings needed for bbc ?

[ClassAct]

With all due respect to you Classact, i will ask you this question. You have been stating (expressing) the extreme importance of the hole in the crankshaft main journal lining up with the hole in the main bearing/engine block. The question is------------WHY is this so important, what does this allow to happen that didn't happen 45 degrees prior to the holes lining up ? Please give detailed/complete answer. Mark H.

Think about how and when the hydrodynamic wedge is formed between the bearing and the crank to carry the load of compression. You won't be squeezing oil into that interface if you don't get the oil in there BEFORE the load goes up.

So I went back and looked through my notes. Most of them are from 1984 when I learned it and 1992 when I listened to a bunch of morons who wanted it changed. The ~ 70 degrees ATDC is correct. It has to be close to that. Otherwise you won't get the hydrodynamic wedge won't be formed (or will be way too weak for lack of a better term) to keep the bearing off of the crank.

I also found in my notes several phone numbers of Super Stock guys who were using this system since at least as early as 1979. Some of the numbers a no longer good, one guy has since died and one number worked. So I called and talked to him last night.

Once we started talking, we remembered we had met at Chrysler race in 1996 and he was pretty pissed at what he saw. I had changed the system for two reasons. One was to get filtered oil to the bearings 100% of the time and the other was to make the oil pressure externally adjustable. He didn't like the fact that most of it was exposed. He was one of the original guys who PAID to learn why they were killing bearings.

Back then, they didn't have much for block selection so they had to figure it out. And that's how they did it. He said Chrysler fought then tooth and nail about publishing how to correct oil timing. He said none of the guys doing it were capable of getting anything published so they wanted Chrysler to issue a bulletin about it and they refused. So to this day, the majority of Chrysler guys (this is the same issue the BB MoPar has) have no idea how to make RPM and not kill Rod bearings. It's sad really.

And don't get me started on the bastards at Chrysler who refuse to acknowledge that there is an OIL TIMING ISSUE getting oil to the rocker arm adjusters!!!! That's an oil timing issue as well. But if we go down that road, warp will be in a rubber room eating his underwear.

[Kevin Johnson]

Thanks very much Kevin.

So, what are the main reasons that air gets in the oil on:

A 5000 rpm factory v8 from the 1970s?

The same v8 hot rodded to turn 6500 rpm on the street?

The same v8 modded to turn 7500 rpm on the drag strip?

The same v8 modded for 7500 on a road course?

There is at least a dissertation worth of discussion here. Multiple SAE papers discuss aspects of this set of problems. There are many theses written on aspects of these problems. That's quite a core dump.

Start with SAE 750051: Mercedes discusses a V8 series from the 1960s further developed in the 1970s with various displacements and rpm levels that address many of your criteria. They even developed a dry sump system for the street when their test parameters were exceeded.

Note carefully the concurrent development of suspension, braking and tire technology which can add/subtract apparent G forces to true longitudinal and lateral accelerations.

Thanks again Kevin,
Would you expect any significant amounts of air to enter the oil, in any of the 4 engine above, OTHER THAN THE PICK UP at the bottom of the pan? Not considering dry sump systems.

Yes.

Read the SAE paper cited below. The data is for passenger car engines.

https://www.sae.org/publications/techni ... nt/940792/

Oil Aeration.jpg

[mt-engines]

With all due respect to you Classact, i will ask you this question. You have been stating (expressing) the extreme importance of the hole in the crankshaft main journal lining up with the hole in the main bearing/engine block. The question is------------WHY is this so important, what does this allow to happen that didn't happen 45 degrees prior to the holes lining up ? Please give detailed/complete answer. Mark H.

Think about how and when the hydrodynamic wedge is formed between the bearing and the crank to carry the load of compression. You won't be squeezing oil into that interface if you don't get the oil in there BEFORE the load goes up.

So I went back and looked through my notes. Most of them are from 1984 when I learned it and 1992 when I listened to a bunch of morons who wanted it changed. The ~ 70 degrees ATDC is correct. It has to be close to that. Otherwise you won't get the hydrodynamic wedge won't be formed (or will be way too weak for lack of a better term) to keep the bearing off of the crank.

I also found in my notes several phone numbers of Super Stock guys who were using this system since at least as early as 1979. Some of the numbers a no longer good, one guy has since died and one number worked. So I called and talked to him last night.

Once we started talking, we remembered we had met at Chrysler race in 1996 and he was pretty pissed at what he saw. I had changed the system for two reasons. One was to get filtered oil to the bearings 100% of the time and the other was to make the oil pressure externally adjustable. He didn't like the fact that most of it was exposed. He was one of the original guys who PAID to learn why they were killing bearings.

Back then, they didn't have much for block selection so they had to figure it out. And that's how they did it. He said Chrysler fought then tooth and nail about publishing how to correct oil timing. He said none of the guys doing it were capable of getting anything published so they wanted Chrysler to issue a bulletin about it and they refused. So to this day, the majority of Chrysler guys (this is the same issue the BB MoPar has) have no idea how to make RPM and not kill Rod bearings. It's sad really.

And don't get me started on the bastards at Chrysler who refuse to acknowledge that there is an OIL TIMING ISSUE getting oil to the rocker arm adjusters!!!! That's an oil timing issue as well. But if we go down that road, warp will be in a rubber room eating his underwear.

Do you properly phase your oil pump lobes, to make sure the timing is correct? Maybe that's your problem. Can anyone else give some insight?

[BobbyB]

There is at least a dissertation worth of discussion here. Multiple SAE papers discuss aspects of this set of problems. There are many theses written on aspects of these problems. That's quite a core dump.

Start with SAE 750051: Mercedes discusses a V8 series from the 1960s further developed in the 1970s with various displacements and rpm levels that address many of your criteria. They even developed a dry sump system for the street when their test parameters were exceeded.

Note carefully the concurrent development of suspension, braking and tire technology which can add/subtract apparent G forces to true longitudinal and lateral accelerations.

Thanks again Kevin,
Would you expect any significant amounts of air to enter the oil, in any of the 4 engine above, OTHER THAN THE PICK UP at the bottom of the pan? Not considering dry sump systems.

Yes.

Read the SAE paper cited below. The data is for passenger car engines.

https://www.sae.org/publications/techni ... nt/940792/

Oil Aeration.jpg

Is there any way to get the paper without paying $30.00? The preview you posted is great. Thanks!

[Kevin Johnson]

Is there any way to get the paper without paying $30.00? The preview you posted is great. Thanks!

SAE members are charged less.

A cautionary tale:

In 2011, Swartz was arrested by Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) police on state breaking-and-entering charges, after connecting a computer to the MIT network in an unmarked and unlocked closet, and setting it to download academic journal articles systematically from JSTOR using a guest user account issued to him by MIT.[11][12] Federal prosecutors later charged him with two counts of wire fraud and eleven violations of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act,[13] carrying a cumulative maximum penalty of $1 million in fines, 35 years in prison, asset forfeiture, restitution, and supervised release.[14]

Swartz declined a plea bargain under which he would have served six months in federal prison. Two days after the prosecution rejected a counter-offer by Swartz, he was found dead in his Brooklyn apartment, where he had hanged himself.[15][16]

[BobbyB]

Is there any way to get the paper without paying $30.00? The preview you posted is great. Thanks!

SAE members are charged less.

A cautionary tale:

In 2011, Swartz was arrested by Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) police on state breaking-and-entering charges, after connecting a computer to the MIT network in an unmarked and unlocked closet, and setting it to download academic journal articles systematically from JSTOR using a guest user account issued to him by MIT.[11][12] Federal prosecutors later charged him with two counts of wire fraud and eleven violations of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act,[13] carrying a cumulative maximum penalty of $1 million in fines, 35 years in prison, asset forfeiture, restitution, and supervised release.[14]

Swartz declined a plea bargain under which he would have served six months in federal prison. Two days after the prosecution rejected a counter-offer by Swartz, he was found dead in his Brooklyn apartment, where he had hanged himself.[15][16]

I meant to say is there any "LEGAL", "PROPER", "RIGHT", way to get it without paying $30.00. Thanks

But, just your preview shows why there are benefits to a high capacity oil pan, that increasing rpms increases air in the oil AND reduces the time allowed for air to get out of the oil, so I learned a lot. I appreciate it.

[BobbyB]

Well, did a 340 sbm with a buddy in 98. Makes about 600hp, and still turns 8k+ everytime he drives it (70 Dart Swinger street car).
Just did a a pretty good twin turbo viper build for the texas mile. Again, no "oil timing issues"?!?
I'm just gonna stop there, but I will say it's quite evident, that your deal could be easily improved!
But hey, isn't that why we get up in the AM?!?

600hp & 8K from a street 340 impresses me. About how many miles has he driven it since 1998? Has he had to freshen it? Solid roller cam?

[Rick!]

I meant to say is there any "LEGAL", "PROPER", "RIGHT", way to get it without paying $30.00. Thanks

No. $110 to be a member for 20% discounts on downloads that are watermarked with your name and date. I find it to be a cheap source of good knowledge.

You could spend an hour or so looking for a pirated copy on the net. Google scholar could maybe help...

[zums]

With all due respect to you Classact, i will ask you this question. You have been stating (expressing) the extreme importance of the hole in the crankshaft main journal lining up with the hole in the main bearing/engine block. The question is------------WHY is this so important, what does this allow to happen that didn't happen 45 degrees prior to the holes lining up ? Please give detailed/complete answer. Mark H.

Think about how and when the hydrodynamic wedge is formed between the bearing and the crank to carry the load of compression. You won't be squeezing oil into that interface if you don't get the oil in there BEFORE the load goes up.

So I went back and looked through my notes. Most of them are from 1984 when I learned it and 1992 when I listened to a bunch of morons who wanted it changed. The ~ 70 degrees ATDC is correct. It has to be close to that. Otherwise you won't get the hydrodynamic wedge won't be formed (or will be way too weak for lack of a better term) to keep the bearing off of the crank.

I also found in my notes several phone numbers of Super Stock guys who were using this system since at least as early as 1979. Some of the numbers a no longer good, one guy has since died and one number worked. So I called and talked to him last night.

Once we started talking, we remembered we had met at Chrysler race in 1996 and he was pretty pissed at what he saw. I had changed the system for two reasons. One was to get filtered oil to the bearings 100% of the time and the other was to make the oil pressure externally adjustable. He didn't like the fact that most of it was exposed. He was one of the original guys who PAID to learn why they were killing bearings.

Back then, they didn't have much for block selection so they had to figure it out. And that's how they did it. He said Chrysler fought then tooth and nail about publishing how to correct oil timing. He said none of the guys doing it were capable of getting anything published so they wanted Chrysler to issue a bulletin about it and they refused. So to this day, the majority of Chrysler guys (this is the same issue the BB MoPar has) have no idea how to make RPM and not kill Rod bearings. It's sad really.

And don't get me started on the bastards at Chrysler who refuse to acknowledge that there is an OIL TIMING ISSUE getting oil to the rocker arm adjusters!!!! That's an oil timing issue as well. But if we go down that road, warp will be in a rubber room eating his underwear.

I think what ClassAct is basically trying to say when comparing oiling systems is that the SBC picks its feed up from the main and oils the rod jrl at around the TDC visinity before the load is the greatest on compression, that spreads the wedge and also gets the rod feed hole out of the way, im not familiar with Chrysler systems but this "timing" as everyone eludes to is 60* on a SBC
Tom

[Warp Speed]

With all due respect to you Classact, i will ask you this question. You have been stating (expressing) the extreme importance of the hole in the crankshaft main journal lining up with the hole in the main bearing/engine block. The question is------------WHY is this so important, what does this allow to happen that didn't happen 45 degrees prior to the holes lining up ? Please give detailed/complete answer. Mark H.

Think about how and when the hydrodynamic wedge is formed between the bearing and the crank to carry the load of compression. You won't be squeezing oil into that interface if you don't get the oil in there BEFORE the load goes up.

So I went back and looked through my notes. Most of them are from 1984 when I learned it and 1992 when I listened to a bunch of morons who wanted it changed. The ~ 70 degrees ATDC is correct. It has to be close to that. Otherwise you won't get the hydrodynamic wedge won't be formed (or will be way too weak for lack of a better term) to keep the bearing off of the crank.

I also found in my notes several phone numbers of Super Stock guys who were using this system since at least as early as 1979. Some of the numbers a no longer good, one guy has since died and one number worked. So I called and talked to him last night.

Once we started talking, we remembered we had met at Chrysler race in 1996 and he was pretty pissed at what he saw. I had changed the system for two reasons. One was to get filtered oil to the bearings 100% of the time and the other was to make the oil pressure externally adjustable. He didn't like the fact that most of it was exposed. He was one of the original guys who PAID to learn why they were killing bearings.

Back then, they didn't have much for block selection so they had to figure it out. And that's how they did it. He said Chrysler fought then tooth and nail about publishing how to correct oil timing. He said none of the guys doing it were capable of getting anything published so they wanted Chrysler to issue a bulletin about it and they refused. So to this day, the majority of Chrysler guys (this is the same issue the BB MoPar has) have no idea how to make RPM and not kill Rod bearings. It's sad really.

And don't get me started on the bastards at Chrysler who refuse to acknowledge that there is an OIL TIMING ISSUE getting oil to the rocker arm adjusters!!!! That's an oil timing issue as well. But if we go down that road, warp will be in a rubber room eating his underwear.

I think what ClassAct is basically trying to say when comparing oiling systems is that the SBC picks its feed up from the main and oils the rod jrl at around the TDC visinity before the load is the greatest on compression, that spreads the wedge and also gets the rod feed hole out of the way, im not familiar with Chrysler systems but this "timing" as everyone eludes to is 60* on a SBC
Tom

60* on #1 cyl?
What about #2?
You see, what Classass fails to realize, is that we (or many besides him anyway) have learned thing a thing or two about oiling systems, and busted many myths since the "good old days"! Lol
We use some oil timing strategies ( for various reasons) that according to his vast knowledge, wouldn't make it past 6k, but is successful at 9k+, with oil temps in the 280*+ in range, depression levels well over 20in (anyone with real experience know what depression does to hot oil) making well over his 2hp/ci level, all day long. Hell, our holes weren't "lined up at 70* atdc, turning 10,400, all day long!
Why is that, if this is all just simply a timing thing?!?
MT brought up a case with a mod motor. Not sure what the timing problem was in the crank that caused his failure, and he stated that they were drilled wrong? But in a 90* v8, with a single, straight shot drill (as the stock crank is) there is only so far you could adjust the oil timing. And the only aftermarket crank that is available for them is from Manley, and they employ a stock, oem drilling, and thus timing. One bank oils at one point, and the other oils basicslly 90 or so after, just like a sbc, ls, sbf ect.
We have the ability to use complex drillings in our design, so basically can adjust this timing all over the place, and have, for various reasons along the way. That's how I know what I speak. LOTS of scientific testing at extreme rpm and temps, with little biudries other than extreme architectural.
Again, not beating my chest what so ever..................just stating Facts!
Is the placement and angle of the block main feed in a 351c optimum? Hell no, but neither is the 351w (almost identical to the 351c) and they don't exhibit this problem.........why?!?
This Is NOT just a simple hydraulic system, but a very complex and inefficient one, no matter what some may imply

[zums]

We use some oil timing strategies ( for various reasons) that according to his vast knowledge, wouldn't make it past 6k, but is successful at 9k+, with oil temps in the 280*+ in range, depression levels well over 20in (anyone with real experience know what depression does to hot oil) making well over his 2hp/ci level, all day long

Curious on the depression point, not that 280* is an issue with a quality synthetic, but how much more depression can you run at that temp before oil vaporization becomes an issue?
Tom

[ClassAct]

Think about how and when the hydrodynamic wedge is formed between the bearing and the crank to carry the load of compression. You won't be squeezing oil into that interface if you don't get the oil in there BEFORE the load goes up.

So I went back and looked through my notes. Most of them are from 1984 when I learned it and 1992 when I listened to a bunch of morons who wanted it changed. The ~ 70 degrees ATDC is correct. It has to be close to that. Otherwise you won't get the hydrodynamic wedge won't be formed (or will be way too weak for lack of a better term) to keep the bearing off of the crank.

I also found in my notes several phone numbers of Super Stock guys who were using this system since at least as early as 1979. Some of the numbers a no longer good, one guy has since died and one number worked. So I called and talked to him last night.

Once we started talking, we remembered we had met at Chrysler race in 1996 and he was pretty pissed at what he saw. I had changed the system for two reasons. One was to get filtered oil to the bearings 100% of the time and the other was to make the oil pressure externally adjustable. He didn't like the fact that most of it was exposed. He was one of the original guys who PAID to learn why they were killing bearings.

Back then, they didn't have much for block selection so they had to figure it out. And that's how they did it. He said Chrysler fought then tooth and nail about publishing how to correct oil timing. He said none of the guys doing it were capable of getting anything published so they wanted Chrysler to issue a bulletin about it and they refused. So to this day, the majority of Chrysler guys (this is the same issue the BB MoPar has) have no idea how to make RPM and not kill Rod bearings. It's sad really.

And don't get me started on the bastards at Chrysler who refuse to acknowledge that there is an OIL TIMING ISSUE getting oil to the rocker arm adjusters!!!! That's an oil timing issue as well. But if we go down that road, warp will be in a rubber room eating his underwear.

I think what ClassAct is basically trying to say when comparing oiling systems is that the SBC picks its feed up from the main and oils the rod jrl at around the TDC visinity before the load is the greatest on compression, that spreads the wedge and also gets the rod feed hole out of the way, im not familiar with Chrysler systems but this "timing" as everyone eludes to is 60* on a SBC
Tom

60* on #1 cyl?
What about #2?
You see, what Classass fails to realize, is that we (or many besides him anyway) have learned thing a thing or two about oiling systems, and busted many myths since the "good old days"! Lol
We use some oil timing strategies ( for various reasons) that according to his vast knowledge, wouldn't make it past 6k, but is successful at 9k+, with oil temps in the 280*+ in range, depression levels well over 20in (anyone with real experience know what depression does to hot oil) making well over his 2hp/ci level, all day long. Hell, our holes weren't "lined up at 70* atdc, turning 10,400, all day long!
Why is that, if this is all just simply a timing thing?!?
MT brought up a case with a mod motor. Not sure what the timing problem was in the crank that caused his failure, and he stated that they were drilled wrong? But in a 90* v8, with a single, straight shot drill (as the stock crank is) there is only so far you could adjust the oil timing. And the only aftermarket crank that is available for them is from Manley, and they employ a stock, oem drilling, and thus timing. One bank oils at one point, and the other oils basicslly 90 or so after, just like a sbc, ls, sbf ect.
We have the ability to use complex drillings in our design, so basically can adjust this timing all over the place, and have, for various reasons along the way. That's how I know what I speak. LOTS of scientific testing at extreme rpm and temps, with little biudries other than extreme architectural.
Again, not beating my chest what so ever..................just stating Facts!
Is the placement and angle of the block main feed in a 351c optimum? Hell no, but neither is the 351w (almost identical to the 351c) and they don't exhibit this problem.........why?!?
This Is NOT just a simple hydraulic system, but a very complex and inefficient one, no matter what some may imply

I see...you don't agree so you call me names. That makes you a pussy because you wouldn't say that to my face.

I understand that you don't know this so I must be wrong, and this is your way to get Mike to lock a thread which you can't dominate.

You are classLESS.

[tuffxf]

Take it easy, this is an interesting thread! too good to be locked!

[cjperformance]

Take it easy, this is an interesting thread! too good to be locked!

So true mate. Time to drag out the coloured drinking straws and a few different cranks again.

[swampbuggy]

Classact, you don't believe the hydrodynamic wedge has to be reformed every time the crankshaft makes a revolution do you Mark H.