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when are 3/4 grooved main bearings needed for bbc ?

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Re: when are 3/4 grooved main bearings needed for bbc ?

Post by modok » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:10 pm

BBC vs sbc
EXTERNAL VS internal balance.

That could change WHERE the #2 and #4 mains are loaded, which could change where the oil holes would want to be.

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Re: when are 3/4 grooved main bearings needed for bbc ?

Post by Krooser » Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:07 pm

With many dirt late models running Ford engines today how do they stay together with 900hp at 8500 rpms for up to 50 miles? Do those blocks have the correct oil timing?
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Re: when are 3/4 grooved main bearings needed for bbc ?

Post by Warp Speed » Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:09 am

Krooser wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:07 pm
With many dirt late models running Ford engines today how do they stay together with 900hp at 8500 rpms for up to 50 miles? Do those blocks have the correct oil timing?
Can anyone tell me what the main difference between a 351c and a 351w oiling system is?!? 8)

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Re: when are 3/4 grooved main bearings needed for bbc ?

Post by tenxal » Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:40 am

Warp Speed wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:09 am
Can anyone tell me what the main difference between a 351c and a 351w oiling system is?!? 8)
Gawd no...I stay as far away from those things as possible! :shock:

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Re: when are 3/4 grooved main bearings needed for bbc ?

Post by Krooser » Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:40 am

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Re: when are 3/4 grooved main bearings needed for bbc ?

Post by Warp Speed » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:04 am

From the above article:


Concise Guidance

Improvements to the 351C lubrication system should focus upon correcting the design flaws rather than the symptoms. :wink:

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Re: when are 3/4 grooved main bearings needed for bbc ?

Post by swampbuggy » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:10 am

The Cleveland and M blocks from the early 70's sent oil to the cam bearings (and) the main bearings at the same time (not good). The oil pump also had a pressure relief valve which was less than ideal. Main problem-----NOT making the main bearing bulkheads/saddles "(TOP/FIRST)" PRIORITY. This well known problem was fixed in the newer blocks. Mark H.

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Re: when are 3/4 grooved main bearings needed for bbc ?

Post by swampbuggy » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:20 am

I remember back in the mid 1970's when i liked David Person and the Wood Brothers a lot. I always was wondering WHY the Ford would run noticeably HIGHER oil pressure. I think i know now WHY. Mark H. :?:

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Re: when are 3/4 grooved main bearings needed for bbc ?

Post by ClassAct » Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:17 am

Warp Speed wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:04 am
From the above article:


Concise Guidance

Improvements to the 351C lubrication system should focus upon correcting the design flaws rather than the symptoms. :wink:

Which is EXACTLY what I'm saying. It's a design flaw. You have to fix it, and full groove mains won't do it. It's helps, but it's not the fix.

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Re: when are 3/4 grooved main bearings needed for bbc ?

Post by Warp Speed » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:33 pm

ClassAct wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:17 am
Warp Speed wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:04 am
From the above article:


Concise Guidance

Improvements to the 351C lubrication system should focus upon correcting the design flaws rather than the symptoms. :wink:

Which is EXACTLY what I'm saying. It's a design flaw. You have to fix it, and full groove mains won't do it. It's helps, but it's not the fix.
Actually, that's what I've been saying, and you have been arguing for pages and pages, that it is a "timing" issue in the block. You based ALL if this crap on a "the hole the crank must line up with the holes in the block, at 70*ATDC, or your doomed" theory, and couldn't be fixed, when that is simply not the case.
AGAIN, the first step to proper oiling (and I went over this many pages ago), is supplying the main bulkhead feeds with a quality supply. This is something that a Cleveland (and many others you've mentioned) fail at, due to not having a seprate main oil galley, but instead use a bank of lifters to do it. Pretty simple actually.........
Other improvements can be made along the way in the system, but if this isn't addressed from the get go, everything else is just a band aid!
Now you may have way more experience with high speed oiling systems, as you claim, than I do ( :lol: ) but it is clearly a quality supply issue, and if you think otherwise (feed timing ect.), you are incorrect, plain and simple.

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Re: when are 3/4 grooved main bearings needed for bbc ?

Post by ClassAct » Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:35 pm

Warp Speed wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:33 pm
ClassAct wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:17 am
Warp Speed wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:04 am
From the above article:


Concise Guidance

Improvements to the 351C lubrication system should focus upon correcting the design flaws rather than the symptoms. :wink:

Which is EXACTLY what I'm saying. It's a design flaw. You have to fix it, and full groove mains won't do it. It's helps, but it's not the fix.
Actually, that's what I've been saying, and you have been arguing for pages and pages, that it is a "timing" issue in the block. You based ALL if this crap on a "the hole the crank must line up with the holes in the block, at 70*ATDC, or your doomed" theory, and couldn't be fixed, when that is simply not the case.
AGAIN, the first step to proper oiling (and I went over this many pages ago), is supplying the main bulkhead feeds with a quality supply. This is something that a Cleveland (and many others you've mentioned) fail at, due to not having a seprate main oil galley, but instead use a bank of lifters to do it. Pretty simple actually.........
Other improvements can be made along the way in the system, but if this isn't addressed from the get go, everything else is just a band aid!
Now you may have way more experience with high speed oiling systems, as you claim, than I do ( :lol: ) but it is clearly a quality supply issue, and if you think otherwise (feed timing ect.), you are incorrect, plain and simple.


You ain't listening. I read that entire thread and would have been laughing had it not been so serious. Let's review.

That thread said you need to run full groove main bearings (not a fix) just like I've been saying. It's a band aid. Why do you want to send oil to the rods all the time? Because it's better to get some oil there all the time, even if most of it is at the wrong time. Pay attention because I'm agreeing with you. Extra oil going to the rods all the time is a power loser. But, if you want to keep the rods in the block, it's what you do, and it works. To a point.

Then I read the same old sorry argument about oil speed moving through the oil gallery. That's a basic error. We are dealing with a simple hydraulic system. So that is wrong. In fact, it is so wrong that the fix for oil speed in that thread was to add oil pressure!!!! WTF? If the oil speed is too great, you'd reduce the pressure to slow the oil down. You'd increase every single feed passage to drop local oil speeds. Yet, in that thread an increase in oil pressure was suggested. Again, it's a bandaid and nothing more.

Then we get to the priority main oiling. It doesn't matter. Unless you lose a lifter and it uncover the oil gallery behind the lifter. The you will lose oil pressure to the mains. If it was priority main oiling, the lifter could blow out of the bore and lay in the valley and the mains would get oil. But it didn't fix the issue. Again, use your God given brain and look at the SBC. It wasn't priority main oiling, and yet, it will oil way past 10k so how does priority main oiling fix that when the SBC didn't have it. In the same era?? What is the difference? It damn sure wasn't priority main oiling.

Don't get me wrong. Priority main oiling should be the way it's done. As I've pointed out over and over and over and over the lowly SBC didn't have it, and it would still oil. Again, I worked on a national record holding Comp Eliminator SBC that went well over 10k all the time. Wet sump. And not a single block he had at the time had priority main oiling. And yet, the Rod bearings look perfect, just like the mains. Hmmmmmmm. What's the difference? I know.

The dreaded tapper bore bushings. LOL. Really? I'm all for stopping any unnecessary oil leak any where I can. Therefore, I'm all for bushing the lifter bores. Not just for oil control, but to correct lifter placement. But does it fix the issue? Nope. Seen many blocks with lifter bushings and rods hanging off the crank. Is that the fix? Nope. It's a band aid. And just like the thread you quoted from, it's to try and fix an engineering issue. Even the guy who wrote that long post knew even with lifter bushings you were just delaying the issue because he said to run full groove mains with the bushings!! Again, not a FIX but a bandaid.

I'm tired of typing so I'm done. I suggest you get a couple of blocks together and put them side by side. Not some block you get to use. Get a non priority SBC and a SBM or BBM or 351C or whatever. A Pontiac. And then look at what the issue is. It's oil timing. Getting oil to the rods at the right time, with the right flow and pressure.

It's that simple. Anything else is not a fix, it's a cover up. You can color it any way you want, but nothing in that thread posted above is new or shocking. It's what everyone does when they don't know how to fix a simple Rod bearing oil issue.

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Re: when are 3/4 grooved main bearings needed for bbc ?

Post by Warp Speed » Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:05 am

ClassAct wrote:
I'm tired of typing so I'm done. I suggest you get a couple of blocks together and put them side by side. Not some block you get to use. Get a non priority SBC and a SBM or BBM or 351C or whatever. A Pontiac. And then look at what the issue is. It's oil timing. Getting oil to the rods at the right time, with the right flow and pressure.
#-o


I hope you are "done", because your really making yourself look foolish!

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Re: when are 3/4 grooved main bearings needed for bbc ?

Post by ClassAct » Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:44 am

Warp Speed wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:05 am
ClassAct wrote:
I'm tired of typing so I'm done. I suggest you get a couple of blocks together and put them side by side. Not some block you get to use. Get a non priority SBC and a SBM or BBM or 351C or whatever. A Pontiac. And then look at what the issue is. It's oil timing. Getting oil to the rods at the right time, with the right flow and pressure.
#-o


I hope you are "done", because your really making yourself look foolish!

Glad you think so. I could find probably 10 well know authors who wrote books on Chrysler engines and virtually every one of them calls for the exact same mods as the link posted above.

All of them are bandaids and never fix the issue.

Like I said...I learned from a guy who was paid to find a solution. He was a hydraulics engineer. The guy who paid him was running Modified Eliminator and was tired of two things: being RPM limited and loosing Rod bearings. So he hired this guy, the hydraulics engineer. He figured it out. And the guy who paid for it sent all that information back to Chrysler so maybe, just maybe, they would look at fixing the issue since the much vaunted X block had run its course and was long overdue for an update. Like everything else, Chrysler didn't care. And as a result, all of the R series blocks from Chrylser still have the oil timing wrong. I was told some of last blocks made had it corrected, but I've never seen one personally. Not even in pictures.

The funny thing is, when Kent Ritter started making blocks he move the oil feed hole. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

You still haven't explained (and I know you won't because evidently you can't) why a SBC without priorority main oiling will oil the rods literally forever and the Chrysler, Ford, Pontiac etc won't do it. And don't say it's because of leaks around the lifters as that is an easy fix that doesn't fix anything. It just moves the RPM up before the catastrophe happens. Like full groove mains.

I'm waiting.

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Re: when are 3/4 grooved main bearings needed for bbc ?

Post by modok » Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:20 pm

If you have one of these fords, I'd recommend you cut a groove in the block.... and the use TWO oil holes in the bearing.
Just like a chevy.....ls3
Is that ironic or what :P

Is it a timing issue? or a flow issue? We can say it's both. Tho personally I think it's MORE a flow issue. Aspect ratio of the bearing. The main is LARGE OD and skinny, the groove and oil feed are very small in comparison. As the crank moves around IN the bearing oil is pumped in and out of the feed passage, pulsing, and I'd say the tiny slot and junction with the cam passage becomes a traffic jam at high speeds.

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Re: when are 3/4 grooved main bearings needed for bbc ?

Post by Warp Speed » Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:18 pm

ClassAct wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:44 am
Warp Speed wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:05 am
ClassAct wrote:
I'm tired of typing so I'm done. I suggest you get a couple of blocks together and put them side by side. Not some block you get to use. Get a non priority SBC and a SBM or BBM or 351C or whatever. A Pontiac. And then look at what the issue is. It's oil timing. Getting oil to the rods at the right time, with the right flow and pressure.
#-o


I hope you are "done", because your really making yourself look foolish!

Glad you think so. I could find probably 10 well know authors who wrote books on Chrysler engines and virtually every one of them calls for the exact same mods as the link posted above.

All of them are bandaids and never fix the issue.

Like I said...I learned from a guy who was paid to find a solution. He was a hydraulics engineer. The guy who paid him was running Modified Eliminator and was tired of two things: being RPM limited and loosing Rod bearings. So he hired this guy, the hydraulics engineer. He figured it out. And the guy who paid for it sent all that information back to Chrysler so maybe, just maybe, they would look at fixing the issue since the much vaunted X block had run its course and was long overdue for an update. Like everything else, Chrysler didn't care. And as a result, all of the R series blocks from Chrylser still have the oil timing wrong. I was told some of last blocks made had it corrected, but I've never seen one personally. Not even in pictures.

The funny thing is, when Kent Ritter started making blocks he move the oil feed hole. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

You still haven't explained (and I know you won't because evidently you can't) why a SBC without priorority main oiling will oil the rods literally forever and the Chrysler, Ford, Pontiac etc won't do it. And don't say it's because of leaks around the lifters as that is an easy fix that doesn't fix anything. It just moves the RPM up before the catastrophe happens. Like full groove mains.

I'm waiting.
As I asked above, but will ask again, and it will answer your question. What is the one difference between a 351c oiling system, and the 351w oiling system? I'll give you a hint, both the 302/351w have it, and so does the sbc........
Other than that, the 351w is almost identical, including this "advanced block timing" your hung up on. Yet we spin those regularly to 8500, making 1500+whp.........?

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