GM splayed caps

[Lizardracing]

What can I expect to pay for installing splayed caps on a 509 GM block with 2 bolt mains?
Do I need steel caps or just nodular iron okay?
Flat bottom caps or stepped?

13:1 GM 406
4.155x3.75
550-575hp and 7000rpm is the target range.
Circle track engine.

[billet]

I am far from a professional engine builder, but have years of experience with circle track and lizard knows who I am.

That being said with a stock 400 block, it's been my experience that stepped caps (non flat register caps) are less likely for the block to split in circle track applications and most of the time I saw the 400 block split is with flat caps where the register was cut. Now I can't say with any data whether this is due to bad machining like no radius to the cut, too tight a fit, just too thin at the new register or various other reasons, but it's something I noticed. Almost every time with flat register caps the block splits right close to the new step cut down into the main webs. . . shrugs

[midnightbluS10]

Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, Carl. Jeez, dude. Go take a couple of Xanax and relax. Why exactly are you being so aggressive about this? Nobody said you were wrong or even addressed you directly but you felt the need to respond as if someone did.


Why?

He was only relaying his experiences as far as I can tell. What exactly does that have to do with you directly? Why are you getting so defensive? You have absolutely NO REASON to. None.

[af2]

You guys are killing it. I ran my studded 2 bolt main block at 13:1 for damn near 15 years before the rod bolt went south.

[Lizardracing]

Thanks for the advice billet. I trust you a lot.

Carl,
I also appreciate your advice. You do have tons of experience doing top quality work, still, by all means you haven’t seen it all nor will you. It’s possible someone else is also right.

My last engine was also of the same configuration.
It had 2 bolt caps with ARP studs. On two occasions on refreshes, actually repairs that became refreshes, the main bearings had copper showing in a spiral like pattern. It didn’t appear the caps were moving around as the no fretting was apparent on the cap to block interface however I felt like the caps had to be twisting in the registers to create that pattern. I suppose the caps could have been ground undersized improperly included the align/bore/hone process however they were round and in the middle of spec. This time, I want to stop that nonsense my adding splayed caps with 10’ outer bolts. I’d like to get 50 nights before needing looked over.
My go too shop for block works says I’m all in at $800 for the caps and machine work but that seems really high to me on a block that’s never been cut before so I’m asking the community for a group opinion on that price tag.

[Lizardracing]

This block has already been through a reputable shop and magged, baking/cleaning, sonic checked, Lifter bores checked for sized and indexing, decked to 9.020, rough bored to 4.152. I have verified this with a receipt and double checked by me.
All it needs now is final honed with a plate, cut for splayed caps, main bores done. I did say that the block wasn't cut on, I should have specified the bottom hasn't been touched.

[midnightbluS10]

Thanks for the advice billet. I trust you a lot.

Carl,
I also appreciate your advice. You do have tons of experience doing top quality work, still, by all means you haven’t seen it all nor will you. It’s possible someone else is also right.

My last engine was also of the same configuration.
It had 2 bolt caps with ARP studs. On two occasions on refreshes, actually repairs that became refreshes, the main bearings had copper showing in a spiral like pattern. It didn’t appear the caps were moving around as the no fretting was apparent on the cap to block interface however I felt like the caps had to be twisting in the registers to create that pattern. I suppose the caps could have been ground undersized improperly included the align/bore/hone process however they were round and in the middle of spec. This time, I want to stop that nonsense my adding splayed caps with 10’ outer bolts. I’d like to get 50 nights before needing looked over.
My go too shop for block works says I’m all in at $800 for the caps and machine work but that seems really high to me on a block that’s never been cut before so I’m asking the community for a group opinion on that price tag.

400 Blocks can be a crap shoot I have had a few where all the machine work was done and once the torque plate was bolted on a crack developed from the bolt hole out in the cylinder making it junk. The only block I get paid for 100% up front before any work is done.

You might want to get you block sonic tested before you do any work as not many are that good for what you are doing.

400 blocks cost more to machine main lines as you have to cut the rear seal area.

Do a search on cracked main registers on a GM block NOOOOOOOOOO Info HMMMMMMMMMMMMM

You're an idiot Carl. You understand that not everbody jumps on the internet and catalogs every block failure they have, right? Jesus Christ dude. Wtf is your deal? Just becaue you don't see search results doesn't mean shit. But you don't seem to get that.

You understand that not everybody posts on internet forums, right? And that you're not gonna find every instance of a block failure by searching said internet because of that, right?

The internet isn't the be-all, end-all. You sure seem o think it is, though.

[novafornow]

This is a "risk vs reward" game that I myself have played. I will never put that kind of money and effort into a stock block again. I did this twice, got away with it the first time. The second time after putting all that work into adding the caps, the deck cracked. Too much risk for me - too little of a reward. SHP blocks are affordable.

[bobmc]

I see the SHP blocks use 3/8 bolts on the outer mains, do the other inexpensive blocks-Blueprint, Brodix etc do this too?

[ProPower engines]

This is a "risk vs reward" game that I myself have played. I will never put that kind of money and effort into a stock block again. I did this twice, got away with it the first time. The second time after putting all that work into adding the caps, the deck cracked. Too much risk for me - too little of a reward. SHP blocks are affordable.

I have seen over the years guys spending good money on bad when it comes to 400 blocks. IMHO worst and weakest block GM Ever built.............

I have to agree the 400 blocks are a crap shoot.
It seems that on the surface they seem like a great way to go but when you get to that next level in power they show their weakness's and cracks are just one of them.
The bores seem like rubber on the best blocks and some flex cracks in the bores and decks are the result.

I tell guys the same deal if you really want 4 bolt caps and a 4.125 bore block just get an SHP block you will be money ahead when you ad up all the machine work..........till they say I spend $400 on the good core can you make it work.

Sure you can do the 4 bolt conversion etc but I just know they will break it some day soon

[pdq67]

(I have posted this probably in the way past BUT if I wanted to use a stock SBC block, I would deck it say a 1/4 to 3/16 of an inch and install a steel plate double bent to go from bank to bank to tie the "V's" together.

Then I would bore it and install thick ductile iron sleeves. (Locked in best as possible!)...

Next, I would girdle the bottom end so that it was as strong as the new top end and go!

Oh, and finally, I would have first made both the top plate and girdle so that exterior tie-bolts running along both sides of the block could tie both of them together vertically!

I figure the block should be able to handle a grenade going off in it's "V" when placed on the ground up-side-down!

BUT won't a new, real, "DUCTILE-IRON", block make all this unnecessary?

pdq67

[Big bald guy]

Sometimes people so wrapped up in an argument never see sarcasm...

[ProPower engines]

I think people just have a hard time understanding the dedication to quality work Carl has.
I have followed and seen his work and have a great respect for what he says and his dedication to doing stuff correctly that dates back to the winston west days. 35+ years

Most guys just do not like to be told their doing it wrong with a stock block and spending all the extra cash on them when its so close to a new block when it comes down to it or with in $500.

Yes he is an opinionated bastard but if ya get past that well he's a good guy to have in your corner on any HP build.

[af2]

I think people just have a hard time understanding the dedication to quality work Carl has.
I have followed and seen his work and have a great respect for what he says and his dedication to doing stuff correctly that dates back to the winston west days. 35+ years

Most guys just do not like to be told their doing it wrong with a stock block and spending all the extra cash on them when its so close to a new block when it comes down to it or with in $500.

Yes he is an opinionated bastard but if ya get past that well he's a good guy to have in your corner on any HP build.

Totally Agree!

[midnightbluS10]

400 Blocks can be a crap shoot I have had a few where all the machine work was done and once the torque plate was bolted on a crack developed from the bolt hole out in the cylinder making it junk. The only block I get paid for 100% up front before any work is done.

You might want to get you block sonic tested before you do any work as not many are that good for what you are doing.

400 blocks cost more to machine main lines as you have to cut the rear seal area.

Do a search on cracked main registers on a GM block NOOOOOOOOOO Info HMMMMMMMMMMMMM

You're an idiot Carl. You understand that not everbody jumps on the internet and catalogs every block failure they have, right? Jesus Christ dude. Wtf is your deal? Just becaue you don't see search results doesn't mean shit. But you don't seem to get that.

You understand that not everybody posts on internet forums, right? And that you're not gonna find every instance of a block failure by searching said internet because of that, right?

The internet isn't the be-all, end-all. You sure seem o think it is, though.

To the midnightbluS10 IDIOT

Express my opinion and you turned into a LITTLE GIRL LMAO

I would have to ask how set of splayed flat bottom caps you have put on and do you own a machine shop ??Just comparing apples to apples here.........

YOU MUST BE ANOTHER KEY BOARD MACHINIST LOL

What Billet post posted makes zero sense you have an outer splayed bolt going out past the register cut pulling that part of the block to the center and that area is the thickest part of the block it would be pretty hard to crack that area. Pictures would have been nice.

Pot, meet kettle. You're the one that flipped the [DELETE THIS POST] out over someone relaying their own experiences Lmfao. You're wound tight, ain't ya, guy? Go take a couple of Xanax. I'm not the one typing in caps and using 57 punctuation marks after a sentence Lmfao. You're obviously very fired up over this. People don't just scream at strangers for nothing lmfao

Seriously dude. You're a trip. You should probably calm down before you stroke out over someone else's block cracking you gonna go on Facebook and complain about me to all your little buddies now, like you usually do? You're the problem here, whether you realize it or not.