I think we should take a good look at the 445 Thunderjet

[LoganD]

Don't expect any factory performance versions of this engine, it'll never happen. This engine is designed for one thing and one thing only: profits. It's the cheapest way possible to make a decent HD gas engine. That's why it doesn't have DI, that's why it's cam in block, that's why it's 2V/cyl. This thing is cheaper to make than almost any other engine Ford produces.

[frnkeore]

Don't expect any factory performance versions of this engine, it'll never happen. This engine is designed for one thing and one thing only: profits. It's the cheapest way possible to make a decent HD gas engine. That's why it doesn't have DI, that's why it's cam in block, that's why it's 2V/cyl. This thing is cheaper to make than almost any other engine Ford produces.

I agree but, for the exception that the HP will be further developed as it is used and it's perfect for us "Hot Rodders" to develop.

The cast iron block will hold a huge amount of HP, with those 6 bolt mains and I think Ford may at, some point, go to a aluminum block.

That said, I do like the over head cam engines at least, until I look at the cost of after market cams

[Rick!]

There appears to be a billet, induction hardened crank in the engine on the stand and then the production piece on the table.
How about the size of the oil passage exits on the rod journals? The same with the crank journals.
With the saw cut, I can see why I read that Ford only recommended a .010 overbore.
Pretty much every V8 from Detroit has been capable of "6-8psi" so there is no special accommodations there.
I'm really curious about the 6 bolt mains. What requires this stiffness addition in a skirted block? Is it needed to keep the oilpan sealing in formation?

So the first aftermarket intake for an antiquated carb is going to come with injector hole plugs?
Or, will it finally force the old hot rodders to embrace EFI?

[LoganD]

There appears to be a billet, induction hardened crank in the engine on the stand and then the production piece on the table.
How about the size of the oil passage exits on the rod journals? The same with the crank journals.
With the saw cut, I can see why I read that Ford only recommended a .010 overbore.
Pretty much every V8 from Detroit has been capable of "6-8psi" so there is no special accommodations there.
I'm really curious about the 6 bolt mains. What requires this stiffness addition in a skirted block? Is it needed to keep the oilpan sealing in formation?

So the first aftermarket intake for an antiquated carb is going to come with injector hole plugs?
Or, will it finally force the old hot rodders to embrace EFI?

Prototype cranks are always billet. It takes too long to get custom forged cranks.

Saw cuts, or any type of between cylinder cooling in the block, are there to HELP keep the bore more round. A saw cut is the cheapest way to do it, drillings are tough to do accurately from a manufacturing standpoint (and thus expensive) and having a cast-in passage makes the casting more expensive. They'll never make an aluminum version of this block, there's precisely zero financial reason to do so, HD truck owners wouldn't give a rat's ass about 80 lbs.

The 6-bolt main setup they have there isn't for strength or durability, that configuration allows them to use the lowest grade materials possible and the cheapest bolts to attain the level of stiffness they want. Despite the fact this is an HD truck engine, they still want it to have good NVH and be smooth. Making the block/head combo as stiff as possible is the best way to do that.

[frnkeore]

I think the weight savings for the block, will be more like 120 lb. That based on the difference between a Dart, 302 Ford block, in aluminum vs cast iron. Those siamese blocks are 160/175 lb vs 82 lb, for a 4.38 bore center and a 8.20 deck, a much smaller block.

allows them to use the lowest grade materials possible and the cheapest bolts to attain the level of stiffness they want.

Regarding bolts and material, I would be totally surprised if all 6 bolts, aren't grade 8 and what cheaper lower strength material, might they use for the main caps or other associated lower end parts?

[motormonkey]

That saw cut Above the siamese bores will be trouble. I imagine a lot of builders will be welding that up. Not convinced on bore thickness either.

[ptuomov]

The main determinant of whether this engine will be a good hot rodding candidate is the production volumes. If they make a lot of them, cores are cheap and people will buy parts that will be available and can be priced economically.

Hot rodding an obsolete Porsche 928 engine with factory parts priced at thousands of dollars per pound and virtually no aftermarket support is kind of opposite of the above scenario.

[LoganD]

The main determinant of whether this engine will be a good hot rodding candidate is the production volumes. If they make a lot of them, cores are cheap and people will buy parts that will be available and can be priced economically.

Hot rodding an obsolete Porsche 928 engine with factory parts priced at thousands of dollars per pound and virtually no aftermarket support is kind of opposite of the above scenario.

I disagree, it'll depend on what it comes in. It'll only ever come in HD trucks so it'll never catch on in the aftermarket.

I think the weight savings for the block, will be more like 120 lb. That based on the difference between a Dart, 302 Ford block, in aluminum vs cast iron. Those siamese blocks are 160/175 lb vs 82 lb, for a 4.38 bore center and a 8.20 deck, a much smaller block.

allows them to use the lowest grade materials possible and the cheapest bolts to attain the level of stiffness they want.

Regarding bolts and material, I would be totally surprised if all 6 bolts, aren't grade 8 and what cheaper lower strength material, might they use for the main caps or other associated lower end parts?

I can't see how they'd make it 120 lbs lighter just by going to aluminum, unlike an aftermarket block they wouldn't just recast it in AL they'd have to redesign it and reinforce it for the weaker material. This means it'd have more ribs, thicker walls, etc. That being said, even if it was 120 lbs who cares? These are 6000 lb trucks.

As for bolts, they can use 10.9 vs. 12.9, they could go to a smaller bolt size, they could use investment cast main caps instead of heat treated steel, etc. You're talking about several dollars of material savings per engine just by making the design beefy. That's a big deal to them.

[Craig J]

Low production volume in obscure applications...it will be a dud, just like the 8.1 GM is a dud. why would any serious ford guy try to build one of these when you can build a big inch 385 series with lots of aftermarket support for far less money?

[MichaelThompson]

Low production volume in obscure applications...it will be a dud, just like the 8.1 GM is a dud. why would any serious ford guy try to build one of these when you can build a big inch 385 series with lots of aftermarket support for far less money?

I respectfully disagree with you. This engine is roughly the size of an LS engine yet displaces more than 100 cubic inches than the most prolific GM engine size 5.3 (323”).

Additionally I think there are some vastly improved valve train characteristics standard with this new 445.

Third thing is this bolts to any transmission that fits the Modular/Coyote family.

Lastly, and maybe a bit intangible but this engine is the brainchild or “baby” of Brian Wolfe in the video. He is a noted Ford engineer/drag racer. It’s no accident that this engine is already getting worked over for performance applications.

[MichaelThompson]

That saw cut Above the siamese bores will be trouble. I imagine a lot of builders will be welding that up. Not convinced on bore thickness either.

Is it possible that the head gasket actually engages with that grove a thereby actually strengthens that sealing area?

[frnkeore]

Regarding alum vs cast iron. Aluminum weights about 1/3 of CI. If the block weighs 230 lb, in iron, you recast it in alum and add about 20% reinforcement i.e. 1/3 of 230 = 77, + 20% =92.5 lb, with 30 lb of iron sleeves and bolts, we'll say 123 lb. That's 107 lb less and I think Ford could do better than I in the design work.

Yes, production volume would play a big part, in the access and price but, like someone said, I doubt that Wolfe would be involved if there were no plans for the future.

[Craig J]

Low production volume in obscure applications...it will be a dud, just like the 8.1 GM is a dud. why would any serious ford guy try to build one of these when you can build a big inch 385 series with lots of aftermarket support for far less money?

I respectfully disagree with you. This engine is roughly the size of an LS engine yet displaces more than 100 cubic inches than the most prolific GM engine size 5.3 (323”).

Additionally I think there are some vastly improved valve train characteristics standard with this new 445.

Third thing is this bolts to any transmission that fits the Modular/Coyote family.

Lastly, and maybe a bit intangible but this engine is the brainchild or “baby” of Brian Wolfe in the video. He is a noted Ford engineer/drag racer. It’s no accident that this engine is already getting worked over for performance applications.

I am sure it is a good engine design, maybe even a great design... the 5.0 coyote engine is at minimum a very good design, probably a great design.

One is already easy to find relatively cheap... when do you think this new one will be available used for under $1500 ?

[ptuomov]

I think that LoganD is of course right that the cars and trucks this engine comes in makes a big difference to the aftermarket popularity. However, if they make 5 million of them (not a prediction, just a number that is 5% of the SBC production volume) they could install the engine only to power toilet seats and that would be enough for a massive aftermarket support.

[MichaelThompson]

Besides being available in the F250-750 Ford trucks the 445 will be an option in the F53/F59 stripped/RV chassis.

Don’t quote me on this but I have reason to believe Indmar Marine is working on a performance boat engine application for this engine as well.

Based on the numbers of trucks that Ford sells and the pent up demand for a cheaper alternative to the expensive Diesel engines I think Ford is going to have to keep a couple shifts (maybe all three) busy getting these things built and out the door.

For this Ford guy this big 445 is like manna from Hot Rod Heaven!