Titanium Valves In A Daily Driver

Type 4 Unleashed · Post by **Type 4 Unleashed** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:08 pm

Hi Folks

Looking for some opinions. I am looking to go Tit Valves on my daily driver, I am trying to lighten up my drive train to keep from having to run lots of spring pressure, with about a 8,000 rpm limit.

Motor 4.130" x 3.31" four cyl, I am looking to go with the Beehive springs, to allow the use of Tit retainers to also help in weight reduction & will allow further benefits with installation & setup, they will net close to the same pressures I currently run with my dual spring set up (140# closed & 320# open).

I have both 7mm & 5/16 sets to choose from, cam will be around .575" lift.

Does anyone think they will last 1 year 20,000 miles ?

Mike Peters · Post by **Mike Peters** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:37 pm

The new LS7 engines have Ti valves. I assume they were planning on them lasting over 1 year and 20K miles.

SStrokerAce · Post by **SStrokerAce** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:58 pm

How big of a valve are we talking about here? (mass wise)

Type 4 Unleashed · Post by **Type 4 Unleashed** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:21 pm

SStrokerAce wrote:How big of a valve are we talking about here? (mass wise)

Actually small, Int's 1.89"-48mm & exh 1.60"-40.6mm, the Tit valve and retainer will provide about a 50g weight reduction compared to the steel ones on the int's, less for the exh..

Ed-vancedEngines · Post by **Ed-vancedEngines** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:22 pm

Wow!
I see no issues except for the price. And again I say Wow!.

Unless you have just tons of money, I suggest to maybe look at Hollow Stem and Sodium Filled Valves. Still expensive but not like Ti.

Ed

Type 4 Unleashed · Post by **Type 4 Unleashed** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:45 pm

This is a low budget project, and no Tons of money, the valves are used Nascar off Ebay, I'll spend more getting 8 cut to size than I spent for the 16, which is still way cheaper than Custom $$$.

Thanks to everyone for replying.

melsie68 · Post by **melsie68** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:15 pm

From what I understand used titanium exhaust valves are not the best idea. Maybe go with some hand picked used Ti intake valves which clean up really well and some hollow stem stainless valves on the exhaust.

Danglerb · Post by **Danglerb** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:17 pm

Not sure if it applies, but the LS7 uses special valve seats made out of unobtainium.

user-9613590 · Post by **user-9613590** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:31 pm

Well,Toyota have production engine (3S-GE Beams) from late -90s with titanium intakes and they sure will run 200 000 km without problem!

(have one in the shelve waiting the time to study it;looks very much like current bike heads..)

CFD_Man · Post by **CFD_Man** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:51 pm

Danglerb wrote:Not sure if it applies, but the LS7 uses special valve seats made out of unobtainium.

What is the valve seat material? It can't be that expensive, after all you can buy a set of LS7 heads over the counter pretty affordably. That obviously doesn't mean the material is easily available though!

I've read that other production engines with Titanium valves are using very high tech hard coatings, on the titanium, to make them last.

I don't see any sign of these high tech coatings, being available on any titanium valves, from the typical racing aftermarket valve companies. They appear to assume that the only application is short term racing with Beryllium Copper valve seats?? Would Beryllium Copper valve seats hold up to any kind of serious mileage?

Type 4 Unleashed · Post by **Type 4 Unleashed** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:15 pm

The LS7 uses Tit int, sodium filled exh, both are 8mm stems, spring pressures, 101# closed 310# open, valve lift .591" Int size 2.205" exh 1.61". I haven't been able to find out seat or guide material or any coating info, I've been to Chevrolet, and if it's not on micro fish, they can't tell you anything else. It's promising that Chevrolet would go Tit with valves, not to mention rods. But then they have an open check book for R&D.

Honda motorcycles is using tit valves, the Ricer crowd have been using tit for some time, but both don't have very much valve weight and don't require very much spring pressure.

I have heard that the used Nascar Tit valves, are not to bad an option.
Nascar's sets their valve seat pressure just 80#'s under what I will have for open pressure.

I am almost to the point of no return with my valve choice, and I have asked this question before, I have even called Del West, and they were evasive.

I have been reading this site for some time, it has just so much info from everyone, I figured I might get some input from here.

Thanks

Unkl Ian · Post by **Unkl Ian** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:44 pm

My guess is the OEM Titanium parts might be more substantial
than race parts that only have to survive one weekend.

But you would have to see them side by side to know for sure.
-------
Didn't Honda run Ti rods in the NSX many years ago ?

Type 4 Unleashed · Post by **Type 4 Unleashed** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:55 pm

Unkl Ian wrote:My guess is the OEM Titanium parts might be more substantial
than race parts that only have to survive one weekend.

But you would have to see them side by side to know for sure.
-------
Didn't Honda run Ti rods in the NSX many years ago ?

Aerospace grade Tit is what ? The best there is ? And who would you think Chevrolet would have make them Tit valves ? And from what material ?

I don't know, but I suspect. OEM ?

Nascar teams went from 11/32 stems to 5/16 to 7mm to 6mm, then Nascar ruled out the 6mm stemmed valves, so now nothing smaller than 7mm ? And I don't think there was a durability issue untill 6mm ?

Chevrolet went with the 8mm stem, I think for the durability issue, but then again they do have a 2.205" head.

Another thing, the seats are siamesed, so there is the heat transfer from the exhaust, since the intake seat is always cooled by the intake charge, so heat from the exhaust seat would constantly be conducted to the intake seat.

SStrokerAce · Post by **SStrokerAce** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:26 am

CFD_Man wrote:What is the valve seat material? It can't be that expensive, after all you can buy a set of LS7 heads over the counter pretty affordably. That obviously doesn't mean the material is easily available though!

I've read that other production engines with Titanium valves are using very high tech hard coatings, on the titanium, to make them last.

I don't see any sign of these high tech coatings, being available on any titanium valves, from the typical racing aftermarket valve companies. They appear to assume that the only application is short term racing with Beryllium Copper valve seats?? Would Beryllium Copper valve seats hold up to any kind of serious mileage?

I haven't seen these unbotainum valve seats.... and i've had three sets of LS7 heads float thru the shop in the last month. (yep they are that light)

The LS7 stuff has a powder metal seat and guides and Ti valves from Del West. The Del West valves have a lash cap which is a big no no IMHO.

As for coatings the stock LS valves have a PVD coating on the heads of the valves. (My guess is a TiAlN)

You could use a variety of coatings depending on the hardness level you wanted. Titanium nitride is a good caoting for valves..... "(TiN) (sometimes known as Tinite) is an extremely hard (~85 Rockwell C Hardness or ~2500 Vickers Hardness or 24.5 gigapascals),[1] ceramic material, often used as a coating on titanium alloy, steel, carbide, and aluminum components to improve the substrate's surface properties." You see TiN on a lot of drill bits and end mills.

TiAlN, TiCN or CrN are also good choices, I've seen Cup valves with TiN on the heads and from what I hear wear is almost nil during a race.

Bret

Danglerb · Post by **Danglerb** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:13 am

I can't find the original post, but it was something about copper infiltrated powder metal valve seats. One of the big companies makes them for Chevy, and only sells them to Chevy from what I read.