4 Questions - Isky Tool Room Springs VS Chrome Silicon & Titanium Retainers On Street Engine

[enigma57]

Thanks, ProPower engines. That is what I've heard about the Isky 295-D springs as well. Also looking at the PAC-1280X 604 Crate engine beehive 'cheater' springs.

Running Rhoads V-max lifters with a small vertical flat machined on one side to aid oiling. I'm thinking that will do the job as a far as oiling. Your thoughts?

Thanks,

Harry

[ProPower engines]

The inlines don't have a great oil system and putting a bigger pump in them kills the dist gear.
I use the comp lifter bore groove tool as some of the lifters that have a flat ground on them still do not put the oil
where it is needed the most and just sprat it where it is not needed at all by rotating. I have tried similar lifters in the past and found the groove placement was more important for anti wear then the flats ground in the bodies.
Both have there merits but the lifter with a flat was for a old GM 2.8 V6 with an ever shittier cam lobe oil system
jmo

[Geoff2]

Harry,
I have been grinding a groove on the side of the lifter for about 30 yrs, loooong before the privilege of paying extra for what you could do with a Dremel in 15 min...

I have also made my 'own' Rhoads lifters for about the same time. File a flat on the inner piston about 0.125" wide. Sometimes wider, sometimes narrower, depends on bleed down reqd, spring tension, oil viscosity etc.

[enigma57]

Thanks for the tip, ProPower engines. I hadn't thought of that. The inline 6 positions the lifters directly above cam lobes. Just figured that since lifters were vertical rather than angled as with a V-type engine, the flat would provide oil to cam lobe directly below as lifter rotated.

These engines have a gear drive for the cam, so if facing engine from front of car, cam will turn in opposite direction as crankshaft. So counterclockwise for the cam.

If I were to groove the lifter bore, would it oil the lobe better if positioned on the drivers side of lifter bore (right side facing engine from front) so it will oil cam lobe as it rotates upward just before lobe contacts lifter face then?

Yes, I am using a standard volume / standard pressure 292 truck oil pump in this engine. Want to be careful with lifter bore clearance and other internal clearances so oil pressure will be SAT. If need be, will pull pump and shim relief spring a smidge, but only if I must.

---

Thanks for the info, Geoff. Yes, those variables are definitely in my mind, as well. Having researched Rhoads lifters and the experiences of others (both pro and con)...... I have come to the conclusion that they were designed to work with old school cam lobes that require only modest spring rates (not exceeding 300 - 315 lbs. open pressure). This seems to be the determining factor with regard to their designed bleed down rate and whether they are exceedingly noisy or have only the sound of a solid lifter cam running say 0.016" / 0.018" hot lash, for instance. I have no plans to run a thin oil as used in many of the newer engines and viscosity will no doubt affect bleed down rate and noise (or lack thereof) once the engine reaches operating temps.

I like the idea of making your own quick bleed down lifters. Reminds me of stories of Burt Munro sand casting his own pistons. Burt was one of my heroes coming up.

Best regards,

Harry

[Alaskaracer]

Just as an FYI, the only springs I'd look at are either the Isky, Manely or PSI. Comp and PAC have had issues with their springs. I was running PAC on my stuff and my rocker arms kept backing off the adjustments, the engine was down on power, and I kept breaking springs. Engine and carb builder Bob Book was also running PAC and was having major issues, cost him well over $10,000 as a result. Switched to PSI and problem solved. They make a much better spring. So if you haven't purchased springs yet, I'd urge you to consider staying away from PAC and Comp, and take a serious look at PSI....

[swampbuggy]

^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^ As Camking said Isky Tool Room springs are made by PSI. Isky is a West Coast distributor for PSI. There is a lot of PSI springs in big time NASCAR white rooms. My money is on PSI. Mark H.

[enigma57]

Thanks, Coloradoracer and swampbuggy. Appreciate the info. I had Isky grind my cam and I have the Rhoads V-Max lifters, 'H code' big block long slot rockers, ARP 7/16" rocker studs and Crane Kool Nuts in hand. But no, I haven't purchased springs and matching retainers, keepers, etc. as yet. Still looking into that.

Old retired guy here piecing together parts on a shoestring budget for a 'last build'. Its kinda like a race in slow motion to see if I can get the old girl roadworthy before I'm too old and gimped up to drive her. She's still 'resting up' in my little car and a half residential garage here in Texas wearing her '76 Saskatchewan license plate and tube type tires. Lots to do before she'll be ready to drive again. I wonder if some scientist somewhere would want to sample the air in those tires to see what the air quality was like in Regina, Saskatchewan 44 years ago.

I do have several springs from Isky and PSI on my list. A lot of what I have for this engine thus far are NOS parts. Avoiding the new ChiCom stuff as best as I can. Isky's online catalogue lists PSI as one of their spring makers. Mike told me that the Isky 'Tool Room' springs such as the 295-D are sourced through PSI and should last a good while in a road car with a mild cam grind such as mine. Seat pressure and installed height are good. The only down side I have found with the 295-D springs is that open pressure (as listed) is more than I need. Perhaps varying installed height might affect that to some degree, but spring rate...... Is what it is. I reckon I'd really need to set one up on the head and check pressure at measured valve lift for my cam and rocker ratio to see what actual spring pressure is at max valve lift.

Happy Motoring,

Harry

[peejay]

A street engine spends 99% of the time at idle and light cruise. If you need expensive valve springs and ti retainers, the cam is all wrong for the application.

That, or you do not want a street engine, you want a race engine to drive on the street. Idntify your goals properly and your choice will be more clear.

[enigma57]

Hi, peejay. Well, the short version is...... I'm limbering up my '57 Chevy sedan. This car will be a driver. A road car. Not a show car and not a race car. I will pull a boat trailer with it up in the Texas hill country. Speed limit there is 75 MPH and its not unusual to encounter 25% - 30% grades extending several miles. And since I will use the '57 as a truck, I am building the mechanicals like a truck.

I've done the V-8 thing with these cars ('55 - '57 Chevys) every which way you can think of over the years including a couple other make engine swaps. So I am going to have some fun and build up a 292 Chevy inline 6 this time 'round.

The Achilles heel for these long stroke inline 6 engines is that they get into some pretty destructive harmonics if you spin them up past 5,500 RPMs. Like slinging flywheels and such. So I am building this engine to make the most average power from off idle to a self imposed redline between 5,000 and 5,500 RPMs. The goal being as broad and flat a powerband as I can get...... Whilst keeping RPMs below the threshold for destructive harmonics.

Part of this build is an experiment I want to conduct...... I will be running Rhoads V-Max lifters. Not to crutch an overcammed engine and not to pass tech on a circle track engine run in a 'vacuum rules' class...... But to see if I can further enhance low and mid-range power and broaden the powerband even more. The idea being to use the Rhoads lifters as an old school way of achieving variable valve timing without the added computer controls and mechanical gear new cars use to accomplish the same thing.

Now bleed down rate with the Rhoads lifters is in large part dependent on valve spring pressure. So the key to making the Rhoads lifters function properly and without being overly noisy...... Is keeping spring pressure below a certain level (300 - 315 lb. open pressure).

And that is why I am taking such care in my choice of springs and valvetrain parts. Lightweight valvetrain parts will allow me to run less spring pressure.

I will not be running titanium retainers on the street, though. Steel is more durable over the long haul for what I am doing.

That's pretty much it.

Thanks,

Harry

[Geoff2]

Harry,
Grooving the lifter bore is a bad idea, IMO. You are putting a notch in cast iron & cast iron doesn't like notches............
Putting a groove in the lifter body, from the oil band to within about 1/8" of the base does exactly the same thing, lubrication wise.

[enigma57]

Thanks, Geoff. I ordered my Rhoads lifters with the small flat machined down one side. So will see how they do in unaltered lifter bores with correct clearance. I am thinking that being positioned directly above the cam lobes on the inline 6, they will oil the lobes more effectively than they would those of a V-type engine. If for any reason the Rhoads lifters don't work out, will go to a solid lifter having EDM hole in lifter face.

Best regards,

Harry

[MadBill]

Harry,
Grooving the lifter bore is a bad idea, IMO. You are putting a notch in cast iron & cast iron doesn't like notches............
Putting a groove in the lifter body, from the oil band to within about 1/8" of the base does exactly the same thing, lubrication wise.

Except that since the lifter rotates, with a grooved body the oil jet will mostly miss the lobe entry side target.

[Geoff2]

So, Bill, you think none of the oil from a lifter groove would reach the lifter base? Don't think so.....
The lifter is rotating as it rides up & down on the lobe, so at some point the groove would be positioned directly on the lobe to collect oil. If the lifter comes to rest on the base circle & the groove is not aligned to the lobe, there will still be oil on the lifter base, surface tension.
Personally, I don't think these grooves/EDM holes are needed. I do it for a 'warm, fuzzy feeling'. We weren't getting FT lobe/lifter failures BEFORE these specialty lifters arrived on the scene; these lifters arrived after the failures started, crap lifter/cam metallurgy.

[swampbuggy]

And lets don't forget the additives that were removed from common shelf oils, to (so they say) protect the catalytic converters which give us that sickening smell Mark H.

[enigma57]

No worries, Mark. There will never be any form of catalytic converter on this car. Its 63 years old and the engine I am building and swapping into it is 54 years old. The oil I use will have all the necessary additives including ZDDP. As a matter of fact, I add these same additives to the oil we run in my wife's 2013 car. It has 140,000 miles on it now and runs fine. No issues with the catalytic converter(s) thus far.

That rotten egg smell you mentioned is hydrogen sulfide gas with some ammonia thrown in for good measure (H2S and NH3). I remember in the '70s when catalytic converters first came out...... I knew then that you cannot eliminate elements altogether. They can only be converted from one thing to another. And I suspected that what the darned things (catalytic converters) were putting out was likely as bad or worse than whatever they were converting into hydrogen sulfide and ammonia.

Really irked me that lead was taken out of gasoline and compression ratios lowered to allow use of lower octane unleaded fuel with catalytic converters (thereby lowering efficiency, performance and mileage). All to accommodate something (catalytic converters) which did little good unless you happen to live in the LA Basin. It is said that the Spanish explorer Juan Cabrillo documented a form of smog/smoke/haze in the LA Basin when he first ventured there in 1542.

I'm going to let Bill and Geoff work out their differences of opinion with regard to notching lifter bore versus machining a flat down the length of a flat tappet lifter. I can see both points of view and valid points are made for (and against) both. But I also believe that the flat will oil better on an inline 6 where the lifter is positioned directly above the cam lobe rather than being positioned to the side and at an angle as with a V-type engine. Of course I could do both. But I am concerned with loosing too much oil pressure by creating multiple leak paths at all 12 lifter bores.

The other side of this is my Grandpa Daniel told me when I was a little kid never to trust a man who wore suspenders and a belt. Meaning in such cases, its better to choose one or the other. He told me this in German. Zu viel zum Besseren kann zu wenig zum Guten fuhren. Loses some (OK, a lot) in the translation...... Loosely (very loosely) translates that too much of a good thing can result in less good than the sum total of effort expended. Or as my Step-dad from Louisiana would say...... Better to let sleeping dogs lie.

Best regards and thanks to all who have responded,

Harry