We are currently running on the new domain and server: www.Speed-Talk.com

IMPORTANT: Update your bookmarks to https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/
(Right-click the URL and select "Bookmark this link")

How much zddp

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

David Redszus
Guru
Guru
Posts: 7709
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Re: How much zddp

Post by David Redszus » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:22 am

Not all ZDDP formulations are the same. Some operate at lower temperatures (and pressures) while others are
designed for more severe duty.

Therefore, elemental zinc content provides useful information only in a vague, general way.

curtis reed
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:35 pm
Location: Kiefer, OK

Re: How much zddp

Post by curtis reed » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:39 am

CamKing wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:44 am
curtis reed wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:20 am
Have you had any of the newer Penngrade tested against the old Brad Penn at a lab? I had seen some info that they no longer use the original base stock in their oils. I'm not saying it still won't work, just that it may have changed contrary to what you posted above. Just something to look into.
I've seen multiple tests, and none of them show any significant change(what you would see from one batch to another).
There's a lot of misinformation out there.

Penngrade had the oils tested, to prove it hasn't changed. Here's the link. https://penngrade1.com/wp-content/uploa ... _FINAL.pdf
Good to know, thanks. There are a great number of people that run that oil so I'm glad to be wrong.

piston guy
Expert
Expert
Posts: 864
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:55 pm
Location: Anaheim, CA

Re: How much zddp

Post by piston guy » Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:25 am

In the mid 60's , I was lucky enough to get help from Valvoline and Crane cams. I was having bearing problems and reached out to Harvey about it . He suggested to "sell the Valvoline and BUY Kendall GT1" I did just that and my bearing issues went away. The "green" oil did cost me my Valvoline deal but was worth it. I still use green oil today in my race engines. the name on the label hasn't changed the reliability of the oil.


N2O Mike. I have plenty of racing experience. I have never lost a cam lobe to "oil" , only "mechanical interference" and that was 40 years ago. An oil chemist warned me that oil will only "hold so much" in suspension ( talking about additives) and that often results in the additives falling out of suspension and lying on the floor of the oil pan , becoming useless as it is not flowing through the engine. He further speculated that over time "some" might eventually be "picked up" by the oil as some other additives were lost through heat cycling. I am not a chemist either but am smart enough to listen to one. Thank you for your response to my question to Mike Jones.

Mattax
Member
Member
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:39 am
Location: Phila. Pa
Contact:

Re: How much zddp

Post by Mattax » Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:45 pm

There is really no reason to wave the wand of mystery smoke over this.

Yes there are three formulation of ZDDP used in engine oils.

Image
From Engine Professional Oct-Dec 2018
posted here by Kaiserjeeps: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthre ... 360&page=3

For a little insight into field studies, its worth poking around Widman's website. He's not a hobbiest or and engine builder, but a tribologist in the business of supplying a lot of fleet use customers. Plenty of case studies presented in layman terms.
Elemental analysis is a tool, just as is the wear test. We don't have to hide our eyes, just use our heads.

One final point. While the OEM's currently have a reduced interest in the flat tappet technology, as noted here before SM oils still needed to meet
the ASTM Sequence III e and G etc for API certification. It provides some level of assurance that current API certified oils should be adequate for standard low performance flat tappet cam engines. To quote Grant. Sequence III-G evaluates cam and tappet wear using a GM 3.8L (231 CID) engine that has had the valve train replaced with the flat tappet valve train similar to that used by GM in the 1980s.... Test III-G is specifically “meant to simulate a flat tappet OHV push rod engine in a pickup truck pulling a loaded cattle trailer across the desert on a hot day.

stealth
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1127
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:37 am
Location:

Re: How much zddp

Post by stealth » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:45 pm

piston guy wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:25 am
In the mid 60's , I was lucky enough to get help from Valvoline and Crane cams. I was having bearing problems and reached out to Harvey about it . He suggested to "sell the Valvoline and BUY Kendall GT1" I did just that and my bearing issues went away. The "green" oil did cost me my Valvoline deal but was worth it. I still use green oil today in my race engines. the name on the label hasn't changed the reliability of the oil.


N2O Mike. I have plenty of racing experience. I have never lost a cam lobe to "oil" , only "mechanical interference" and that was 40 years ago. An oil chemist warned me that oil will only "hold so much" in suspension ( talking about additives) and that often results in the additives falling out of suspension and lying on the floor of the oil pan , becoming useless as it is not flowing through the engine. He further speculated that over time "some" might eventually be "picked up" by the oil as some other additives were lost through heat cycling. I am not a chemist either but am smart enough to listen to one. Thank you for your response to my question to Mike Jones.

I heard the New penn grade oil is the old Kendall oil from the same base oil and refinery... Wonder if that’s true
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

novafornow
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:23 pm
Location: california

Re: How much zddp

Post by novafornow » Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:07 pm

Just wondering......How much of the flat tappet trouble is related to a lack of what I will term "cling". I wonder if oil running off has anything to do with this? Particularly in a race or hobby engine that sits for extended periods. Something that has bounced around in my head a time or two.

David Redszus
Guru
Guru
Posts: 7709
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Re: How much zddp

Post by David Redszus » Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:49 pm

novafornow wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:07 pm
Just wondering......How much of the flat tappet trouble is related to a lack of what I will term "cling". I wonder if oil running off has anything to do with this? Particularly in a race or hobby engine that sits for extended periods. Something that has bounced around in my head a time or two.
As the above posts have indicated, ZDDP anti-wear additive is activated with heat. A cold engine does not handle loads very well from a lubricant and wear perspective. However, once activated by heat, the decomposed products of ZDDP do attached to metal surfaces to provide cold start protection.

Another "cling" factor is oil viscosity. A more viscose oil will provide additional cold start protection, unless the oil is so cold and viscosity so high that the oil will not flow properly.

User avatar
modok
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2485
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:50 am
Location:

Re: How much zddp

Post by modok » Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:42 pm

Truckedup wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:27 am
modok wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:34 am
I don't agree with some things said. For break-in you don't need high levels because the oil is run a short time.
Break in oil does not necessarily contain a high %

the longer you run the oil the higher the level needed.
It's a sacrificial additive. it gets used up over time.
The amount isn't highly critical, it should work about the same with a half dose or a double dose. This is according to research.
If you find that's not the case (and I would agree actual experience does seem to contradict that).... then what's causing it must be OTHER things in the oil must be preventing it from working as it should. It's other factors.

What you DO need in a break in oil is LESS detergents and other additives, there no need for it.
Your trying to MAKE deposits not "prevent deposits", and the engine is so clean that you can't see the oil on the dipstick.
OLD timers knew that a lot more commonly than today, and it turns out they might have been right.
Ok then why all the cam failures in the early 2000's when the ZDDP levels were dropped ? This happened for builders who never had previous probolems..
I DON'T know. What I have noted is.... a number of people did work hard looking into it........ and nobody found the smoking gun. It wasn't one thing.
For sure you need the right alloys of material, with the right heat treatment and hardness. Machined with correct crown and lobe taper. And a GOOD lubricant. And it works. Which is not surprising.
As far as the oil itself it is true some work kinds work great and some less-so, but very hard to know exactly why, because you don't know exactly what is IN it, nor what's actually happening at a microscopic level.

Truckedup
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2304
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:41 pm
Location:

Re: How much zddp

Post by Truckedup » Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:15 am

[quote=modok post_id=853469 time=1584142954 user_id=11455

I DON'T know. What I have noted is.... a number of people did work hard looking into it........ and nobody found the smoking gun. It wasn't one thing.
For sure you need the right alloys of material, with the right heat treatment and hardness. Machined with correct crown and lobe taper. And a GOOD lubricant. And it works. Which is not surprising.
As far as the oil itself it is true some work kinds work great and some less-so, but very hard to know exactly why, because you don't know exactly what is IN it, nor what's actually happening at a microscopic level.
[/quote]

I was one who lost a cam for no apparant reason other than the ZDDP level in the oil I had been using for years.. After cleaning up the mess and using the a new cam of the same type,beakin in and use of a known higher ZDDP oil and zero problems...For me that was a smoking gun...
Motorcycle land speed racing... wearing animal hides and clinging to vibrating oily machines propelled by fire

MELWAY
Expert
Expert
Posts: 888
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:37 pm
Location: melbourne australia

Re: How much zddp

Post by MELWAY » Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:40 am

novafornow wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:07 pm
Just wondering......How much of the flat tappet trouble is related to a lack of what I will term "cling". I wonder if oil running off has anything to do with this? Particularly in a race or hobby engine that sits for extended periods. Something that has bounced around in my head a time or two.
I would believe in this as well. I have pulled many engines apart. And some cast cams look completely dry as if there was no oil. After sitting for 3-4 months. And the you pull one open that was on brad penn green oil and the cam is wet and green after a yeAr. I believe that stuff ‘glings’ to parts much better than a synthetic oil
3370lb Sedan 9.89@136MPH 358chevN/A

frnkeore
Member
Member
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:06 am
Location: Oregon

Re: How much zddp

Post by frnkeore » Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:03 am

Will oil hole lifters, allow higher spring pressure for break in, using min 1400 ppm zddp? If so, what would be a safe spring limit?

pitts64
Member
Member
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:00 am
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa.

Re: How much zddp

Post by pitts64 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:36 am

I use Mobil 1 5-30 in everything including the lawnmower...lol Never any issues. I have over 200,000 miles on three different flat tappet motors using it. One is a Pontiac with a real healthy 316/320 cam with heavy springs, I put 70,000 on that motor using nothing but Mobil 1 and some Rislone every now and then..
I also use Wix filters..

User avatar
CamKing
Guru
Guru
Posts: 9420
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:05 pm
Location: Denver, NC
Contact:

Re: How much zddp

Post by CamKing » Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:31 am

frnkeore wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:03 am
Will oil hole lifters, allow higher spring pressure for break in, using min 1400 ppm zddp? If so, what would be a safe spring limit?
Probably, but we still recommend to break in the cam with less then 300# over the nose, even with our oiling lifters.
Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs

Denver, NC
jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
Jones Cam Designs' HotPass Vendors Forum: viewforum.php?f=44
(704)489-2449

Post Reply