We are currently running on the new domain and server: www.Speed-Talk.com

IMPORTANT: Update your bookmarks to https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/
(Right-click the URL and select "Bookmark this link")

How much zddp

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

User avatar
CamKing
Guru
Guru
Posts: 9419
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:05 pm
Location: Denver, NC
Contact:

Re: How much zddp

Post by CamKing » Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:24 pm

F-BIRD'88 wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:10 pm
Ground up cam lobe and lifter face is MUCH MORE CORROSIVE.
We haven't lost a flat tappet cam in over a year. That's about 300 cams.
No moly needed.
Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs

Denver, NC
jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
Jones Cam Designs' HotPass Vendors Forum: viewforum.php?f=44
(704)489-2449

pdq67
Guru
Guru
Posts: 9223
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:05 pm
Location:

Re: How much zddp

Post by pdq67 » Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:12 pm

Anybody have any experience using cams and lifters coated with DLC, "diamond like coatings", to combat extreme wear to the cam and valve train?

Doesn't NASACAR use them?

I thought moly disulfide was almost inert so Mike please say more about it being corrosive so I can learn something.

Thanks,

pdq67

n2omike
Expert
Expert
Posts: 759
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:56 pm
Location: West Virginia

Re: How much zddp

Post by n2omike » Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:34 pm


ClassAct
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 492
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:55 pm
Location:

Re: How much zddp

Post by ClassAct » Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:50 pm

CamKing wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:24 pm
F-BIRD'88 wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:10 pm
Ground up cam lobe and lifter face is MUCH MORE CORROSIVE.
We haven't lost a flat tappet cam in over a year. That's about 300 cams.
No moly needed.


IIRC disulfide is not oil soluble. But you can get oil soluble moly. It's just very expensive.

User avatar
modok
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2485
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:50 am
Location:

Re: How much zddp

Post by modok » Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:52 pm

If you want to use a solid lubricant.... why put it in the oil?......why not put it right on or IN the part? moly faced rings. Cast iron. Coatings.
I think Moly has been tried to death. Does not seem to be "the" answer, Why not tho?

MAYBE? this is why not. Most EP additives work with what is already IN the metal and IN the oil, whatever chemical soup develops. In an engine we have carbon/graphite, as well as water vapor, at usually boiling temp, and very SMOOTH surfaces. In that particular environment maybe moly is just not the right thing for the job.
I don't ever see moly and graphite used together, usually one or the other, maybe there is a reason maybe not.

David Redszus
Guru
Guru
Posts: 7709
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Re: How much zddp

Post by David Redszus » Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:24 pm

Additive component metals
Barium
Used as a dispersant, detergent, corrosion and rust inhibitor

Boron
Anti-wear agent, anti-oxidant, used in cutting oils, greases and brake fluids,
cooling system additive

Calcium
Used as a dispersant, detergent and acid neutralizer

Magnesium
Used as a dispersant and detergent additive

Molybdenum
Anti-wear additive

Phosphorus
Anti-wear, anti-rust agent, spark-plug and combustion chamber deposit reducer

Zinc
Anti-wear & extreme pressure agent, anti-oxidant, corrosion inhibitor, detergent

Potassium
Cooling system additive, gear oil additive

User avatar
CamKing
Guru
Guru
Posts: 9419
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:05 pm
Location: Denver, NC
Contact:

Re: How much zddp

Post by CamKing » Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:19 am

pdq67 wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:12 pm
Anybody have any experience using cams and lifters coated with DLC, "diamond like coatings", to combat extreme wear to the cam and valve train?

Doesn't NASACAR use them?
NASCAR used them, when they had to run flat tappets, but now they're allowed roller cams.
With the flat tappet cams, we use a tool steel cam, with DLC coated steel lifters. Some of the cup teams DLC coated the lifters and the cam, because it supposedly reduced friction to have DLC running on DLC. For wear, you just need the DLC on one surface.
We are now doing this for some other circle track classes, that are required to run flat tappet cams, but don't require cast iron cams.
Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs

Denver, NC
jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
Jones Cam Designs' HotPass Vendors Forum: viewforum.php?f=44
(704)489-2449

Truckedup
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2304
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:41 pm
Location:

Re: How much zddp

Post by Truckedup » Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:32 am

Moto Guzzi motorcycles used DLC coated lifters on their performance engines about 8 years ago...It flaked off costing a small company a lot of money in warranty repairs..Guzzi came up with a roller cam replacement...
Motorcycle land speed racing... wearing animal hides and clinging to vibrating oily machines propelled by fire

User avatar
modok
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2485
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:50 am
Location:

Re: How much zddp

Post by modok » Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:08 pm

the spectral analysis does not tell you what is in the oil.

I if add zinc pills from walgreens is that going to help my cam?

Krooser
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 1620
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:14 pm
Location: Tropical Wisconsin

Re: How much zddp

Post by Krooser » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:29 pm

modok wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:08 pm
the spectral analysis does not tell you what is in the oil.

I if add zinc pills from walgreens is that going to help my cam?
Analysis done on clean oil will go you what's in the oil
Luxemburg Speedway Hall of Fame Member Class of 2019

User avatar
modok
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2485
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:50 am
Location:

Re: How much zddp

Post by modok » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:38 pm

Is zddp an element?
where is it on the periodic chart?

digger
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 1811
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:39 am
Location:

Re: How much zddp

Post by digger » Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:08 pm

modok wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:08 pm
the spectral analysis does not tell you what is in the oil.

I if add zinc pills from walgreens is that going to help my cam?
i think you lost most people, you are correct the oil analysis normally wont tell you how much or what type of ZDDP there is in it. it will tell you the zinc and the phosphorus but those may not be in the form of ZDDP so what good is it. i was always told the phosphorus was a better indicator of ZDDP than zinc but it is not perfect my any means

n2omike
Expert
Expert
Posts: 759
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:56 pm
Location: West Virginia

Re: How much zddp

Post by n2omike » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:23 am

David Redszus wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:24 pm
Additive component metals
Barium
Used as a dispersant, detergent, corrosion and rust inhibitor

Boron
Anti-wear agent, anti-oxidant, used in cutting oils, greases and brake fluids,
cooling system additive

Calcium
Used as a dispersant, detergent and acid neutralizer

Magnesium
Used as a dispersant and detergent additive

Molybdenum
Anti-wear additive

Phosphorus
Anti-wear, anti-rust agent, spark-plug and combustion chamber deposit reducer

Zinc
Anti-wear & extreme pressure agent, anti-oxidant, corrosion inhibitor, detergent

Potassium
Cooling system additive, gear oil additive
Chemistry Guy Here...

To be fair, a person cannot classify anti-wear compounds as elements. Elements such as hydrogen, oxygen, zinc, phosphorous, etc combine to make compounds. Compounds have almost ZERO in common with their component elements. Oxygen is a gas we need to live. Combine it with hydrogen (a flammable gas) and it turns into water, which we cannot breathe, and puts out fires. Chlorine is a poisonous gas... but chemically combine it with sodium (a metal that melts, then ignites when placed in water) and you get table salt. Zinc is a metal. It's not going to lubricate anything. Phosphorous is a soft metal that easily ignites. It's not going to do an engine any good in its elemental form, either. Potassium is a light metal that melts, then catches on fire when placed in water. Elemental calcium is also a metal that dissolves in water.

ZDDP has the chemical formula C32H68O4P2S4Zn. It's name is Zinc diisooctyl dithiophosphate UNII-481S5GBI4N Zinc bis(O,O-diisooctyl dithiophosphate). It is a compound containing Zinc and Phosphorus. When you hear of oil containing these two elements, they are referring to this ONE compound that contains both.

Molybdenum is also an element. It's a metal. Mix it and chromium with iron, and you get some darn good steel. The anti-wear compound containing this element is molybdenum disulfide. It contains both this element and sulfur. The element by itself, being a solid metal... isn't doing anything for lubrication.

compguy
Member
Member
Posts: 81
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:33 am
Location: Sitting down, facing West

Re: How much zddp

Post by compguy » Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:48 am

Mike,
What did the Nascar flat tappet guys run for oil on a DLC lifter/DLC cam combination? Obviously it was for a few hours endurance, but for a 1/4 mile max output DLC flat tappet combo, run what the roller cam guys run with an additive or ?

User avatar
CamKing
Guru
Guru
Posts: 9419
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:05 pm
Location: Denver, NC
Contact:

Re: How much zddp

Post by CamKing » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:57 am

compguy wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:48 am
Mike,
What did the Nascar flat tappet guys run for oil on a DLC lifter/DLC cam combination? Obviously it was for a few hours endurance, but for a 1/4 mile max output DLC flat tappet combo, run what the roller cam guys run with an additive or ?
I don't know what they ran. I assume some ran one of the Driven oils, but I never asked.
I learned decades ago while working with IndyCar teams, not to ask. These big teams all have an oil sponsor, and if you ask them what they're running, they will tell you they're running their sponsor's oil.
I remember a team that was sponsored by Pennzoil, but they ran Valvoline. If you looked into their garage at the track, you would see 5 gallon Pennzoil buckets, but they were filled with Valvoline.
Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs

Denver, NC
jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
Jones Cam Designs' HotPass Vendors Forum: viewforum.php?f=44
(704)489-2449

Post Reply