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How much zddp

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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piston guy
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Re: How much zddp

Post by piston guy » Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:56 am

Mike,
While cam manufacturers recommend ZDDP and cam lubes for flat lifter cam break in , after break in in is there a point where allot of additive isn't needed? "I" would think that after the lifters and lobes have "worn in" that the anti scuff ingredients could virtually go away. Besides migrating to a thick film on the bottom of the pan , "I" don't see the additive being good for the soft bearings number one and I don't see it helping ring seal either.
One last question. Several here have cautioned the use of DLC lifters on cast iron cams. Is it the porosity of the iron or the Parko/ phosphate coating that hurts the DLC surface? Could they be used on a used cam because that coating is already gone?
Thanks as always.

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Re: How much zddp

Post by CamKing » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:03 pm

piston guy wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:56 am
Mike,
While cam manufacturers recommend ZDDP and cam lubes for flat lifter cam break in , after break in in is there a point where allot of additive isn't needed?
Yes, after break-in you can switch to an oil with less ZDDP. We recommend PennGrade1 partial synthetics, or their non-synthetic mono grade oils.
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Re: How much zddp

Post by n2omike » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:04 pm

piston guy wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:56 am
Mike,
While cam manufacturers recommend ZDDP and cam lubes for flat lifter cam break in , after break in in is there a point where allot of additive isn't needed? "I" would think that after the lifters and lobes have "worn in" that the anti scuff ingredients could virtually go away. Besides migrating to a thick film on the bottom of the pan , "I" don't see the additive being good for the soft bearings number one and I don't see it helping ring seal either.
One last question. Several here have cautioned the use of DLC lifters on cast iron cams. Is it the porosity of the iron or the Parko/ phosphate coating that hurts the DLC surface? Could they be used on a used cam because that coating is already gone?
Thanks as always.
A lot of these things you mentioned have theoretical answers that a science person will say SHOULD work... but that's only step one. The guys out there actually doing it will prove the theory right or wrong.

When they build a chemical plant, the PhD chemist comes up with a process. It then goes through other PhD chemists. Next step is doing it on a lab scale, where a miniature version of the plant process can fit on a 30 ft look lab/work bench. After they work all bugs out they can (which there will be many) and optimize the process (which takes a long time), they decide if the whole thing is worth pursuing. If it gets the green light, they build a pilot plant, which will fit in the average high school gymnasium. This is where they will further fine tune things. If this passes muster, then it goes into full size production... and THAT will need fine tuned.

So, me being a single, generic science guy... My answer is MAYBE. lol

Lots of things should or 'should not' work... but they either fail or succeed anyway. Field tests are the only way to know if something will work for sure or not.

As to your specific question about high pressure additives being needed after the surfaces are worn together... When it comes to a cam/lifter, I would say YES. Additives are needed. The higher the pressures, the more they are needed. Do you need to go OVERKILL on an average 0.550" lift street car with 280 lbs over the nose? Probably not. An decent oil formulated for flat tappet cams should do the job just fine. I'm no oil specialist, so I won't take it any further than that.

Good Luck

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Re: How much zddp

Post by David Redszus » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:52 pm

ZINC DITHIOPHOSPHATES (ZDDP)

ZDDPs have been used for more than 60 years in the lubricant industry
as a low cost, multifunctional additive in engine oils, transmission fluids,
hydraulic fluids, gear lubes, greases and other applications.

The power of this compounds is in its ability to simultaneously function
as an excellent anti-wear agent, mild extreme pressure agent, effective
anti-oxidant and corrosion inhibitor--all at a very low cost.

Patented in 1944, by Union Oil Company, it produced a noticeable
increase in both the oxidation and corrosion resistance of the lubricants
tested. Its anti-wear properties were yet to be discovered.

Starting with phosphorus and sulfur (P2S5), a flammable solid produced
from the high temperature reaction between elemental phosphorus and
sulfur, it is reacted with alcohol under a blanket of nitrogen. Zinc oxide is
added to control the Ph of the acidic compound. The fluid compound
consists of phosphorus, sulfur, linked by a zinc atom.

ZDDPs operate as anti-wear agents but exhibit mild EP characteristics
as well. ZDDP operates under mixed lubrication conditions providing a
thin oil film separating the metal parts. When the load is high enough to
collapse the oil film, the ZDDP reacts not just with asperities, but with
the entire metal surface to prevent welding and to reduce wear.

Thus, the thermal degradation products of ZDDP become the active
anti-wear agents. The anti-wear film thickness and composition are
directly related to temperature and the extent of surface rubbing.
Initially, ZDDP is absorbed onto the metal surface at low temperature.
As the temperature increases, catalytic decomposition of ZDDP to
DIALKYLDITHIOPHOSPHORIC DISULFIDE occurs being absorbed on the
metal surfaces. Increasing temperature and pressure cause a film to
be formed on the metal surfaces.

The ZDDP film is composed of several layers of ZDDP degradation
products, making up the lubricated surface; the layer composition is
temperature dependent.

ZDDP is produced in both neutral and basic forms. The neutral performs
better valve train wear protection than does basic. Primary and secondary
ZDDP are both used in engine oil formulations. The secondary performs
better in cam lobe wear protection and are used when increased EP
activity is required. ZDDP are used in combination with detergents and
dispersants. As an EP agent, higher activation temperatures are required
to produce the disassociated compounds.

The type of alcohol used to prepare ZDDP will determine the thermal
and oxidative stability. The most reactive ZDDP are derived from secondary
alcohols with lower molecular weights. The type of alcohol will have
a significant effect on the stability; the least stable tend to provide
improved anti-wear at lower engine oil temperatures.

Other additives will affect the rate of thermal degradation of ZDDP.
Some dispersants will make ZDDP more resistant to thermal decomposition,
leaving it unable to form an effective anti-wear film.

Summary
A major anti-wear lubricant additive is called ZDDP which consists of
phosphorus, sulfur, and zinc; but not in metallic form. The presence
of increased levels of zinc does not indicate the operating characteristics
of the ZDDP and the lubricant.

ZDDP is activated by temperature; higher temperatures being necessary
to provide EP protection. Depending on the alcohol used in its formation,
ZDDP will have various thermal activation levels.

ZDDP is negatively affected by other lubricant additives such as dispersants.
Therefore, a careful balance must be formulated, involving oil base stock,
and selected additives, based on the intended application.

The quantity of elemental substances (zinc, phosphorus, sulfur) is of
little concern with regard to the efficacy of a lubricant. Additives are
complex compounds with many functional variables. Many function
synergistically with other additives and base oils.

Since temperature is a critical factor in proper anti-wear protection, I
have listed selected approximate temperatures for various engine parts.

Area ...............................Temperature (deg C)
Exhaust valve head................650-730
Exhaust valve stem................635-675
Combustion chamber gas.........2300-2500
Combustion chamber wall........204-260
Piston crown........................204-426
Piston rings.........................149-315
Piston wrist pin ...................120-230
Piston skirt..........................93-204
Top cylinder wall...................93-371
Bottom cylinder wall ................>149
Main bearings.........................>177
ConRod bearings...................93-204

The temperature range at which various engine parts must operate poses
a problem for the lubricant formulators. Anti-wear additives (ZDDP) are
activated at various temperatures depending on their formulation and
method of manufacture.

The perfect oil blend would be one that contains the correct additive
components and concentrations, suitable for a specific engine.
Or actually, its operating temperatures and pressures.

Rule number one
Field tests are the only way to know if something will
work for sure or not.
Rule number two
Nobody can afford to perform correct and proper field tests.

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Re: How much zddp

Post by frnkeore » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:01 pm

I've been following this closely, since I'm putting a 302, together. I was at my machinist today, checking on his progress and he suggested Driven.

What does anyone know about the oil "Driven"? First marketed by Joe Gibbs Racing?

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Re: How much zddp

Post by MadBill » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:15 pm

CamKing wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:57 am
..I learned decades ago while working with IndyCar teams, not to ask. These big teams all have an oil sponsor, and if you ask them what they're running, they will tell you they're running their sponsor's oil.
I remember a team that was sponsored by Pennzoil, but they ran Valvoline. If you looked into their garage at the track, you would see 5 gallon Pennzoil buckets, but they were filled with Valvoline.
So Mike, you'll be understanding when you see the Comp stickers om my car? :lol:
Felix, qui potuit rerum cognscere causas.

Happy is he who can discover the cause of things.

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Re: How much zddp

Post by MadBill » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:39 pm

frnkeore wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:01 pm
I've been following this closely, since I'm putting a 302, together. I was at my machinist today, checking on his progress and he suggested Driven.

What does anyone know about the oil "Driven"? First marketed by Joe Gibbs Racing?
We've been using it in our 675 HP 8,000 RPM SBF road racer since 2012 with oil temps as high as 300°. Zero problems. The bearings have looked so good each year that we've put them back in since 2015, based on the philosophy that we know they're good, but a fresh set could be defective. Oil analysis after a full season showed less than half the recommended acceptable oxidation, etc.; "suitable for further service..."

One slight oddity: we run two ring pistons providing only adequate oil control. Early on the exhaust smelled like fresh laundry but no any more; they must have reformulated it. :-k
Last edited by MadBill on Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How much zddp

Post by frnkeore » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:54 pm

Bill, are you using conventional or synthetic?

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Re: How much zddp

Post by MadBill » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:34 pm

Full synthetic.
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Re: How much zddp

Post by frnkeore » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:30 am

Did you use synthetic for break in, too?

I was told it might effect normal ring seating.

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Re: How much zddp

Post by modok » Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:34 am

I don't agree with some things said. For break-in you don't need high levels because the oil is run a short time.
Break in oil does not necessarily contain a high %

the longer you run the oil the higher the level needed.
It's a sacrificial additive. it gets used up over time.
The amount isn't highly critical, it should work about the same with a half dose or a double dose. This is according to research.
If you find that's not the case (and I would agree actual experience does seem to contradict that).... then what's causing it must be OTHER things in the oil must be preventing it from working as it should. It's other factors.

What you DO need in a break in oil is LESS detergents and other additives, there no need for it.
Your trying to MAKE deposits not "prevent deposits", and the engine is so clean that you can't see the oil on the dipstick.
OLD timers knew that a lot more commonly than today, and it turns out they might have been right.

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Re: How much zddp

Post by curtis reed » Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:20 am

CamKing wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:42 pm
There's a few really good "Off the Shelf" oils out there. I don't recommend them, because the large companies have a history of changing an oil's formula, without ever telling anyone. There's a much smaller risk of that happening with a "Not for on-road use" oil.
Have you had any of the newer Penngrade tested against the old Brad Penn at a lab? I had seen some info that they no longer use the original base stock in their oils. I'm not saying it still won't work, just that it may have changed contrary to what you posted above. Just something to look into.

Curtis

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Re: How much zddp

Post by CamKing » Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:44 am

curtis reed wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:20 am
Have you had any of the newer Penngrade tested against the old Brad Penn at a lab? I had seen some info that they no longer use the original base stock in their oils. I'm not saying it still won't work, just that it may have changed contrary to what you posted above. Just something to look into.
I've seen multiple tests, and none of them show any significant change(what you would see from one batch to another).
There's a lot of misinformation out there.

Penngrade had the oils tested, to prove it hasn't changed. Here's the link. https://penngrade1.com/wp-content/uploa ... _FINAL.pdf
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Re: How much zddp

Post by CamKing » Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:52 am

MadBill wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:15 pm
So Mike, you'll be understanding when you see the Comp stickers om my car? :lol:
You wouldn't be the first, and you won't be the last. :wink:
Back when they ran V6's in NASCAR's Busch series, one of my customers was dominating the series, and he was sponsored by Lunati.
Lunati provided him free cams, that we would regrind, and cash, that he used to pay for the regrinds.
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Re: How much zddp

Post by Truckedup » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:27 am

modok wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:34 am
I don't agree with some things said. For break-in you don't need high levels because the oil is run a short time.
Break in oil does not necessarily contain a high %

the longer you run the oil the higher the level needed.
It's a sacrificial additive. it gets used up over time.
The amount isn't highly critical, it should work about the same with a half dose or a double dose. This is according to research.
If you find that's not the case (and I would agree actual experience does seem to contradict that).... then what's causing it must be OTHER things in the oil must be preventing it from working as it should. It's other factors.

What you DO need in a break in oil is LESS detergents and other additives, there no need for it.
Your trying to MAKE deposits not "prevent deposits", and the engine is so clean that you can't see the oil on the dipstick.
OLD timers knew that a lot more commonly than today, and it turns out they might have been right.
Ok then why all the cam failures in the early 2000's when the ZDDP levels were dropped ? This happened for builders who never had previous probolems..
Motorcycle land speed racing... wearing animal hides and clinging to vibrating oily machines propelled by fire

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