stock 289 rebuild/pistons

[jred]

I have a engine that came in 1965 289 ford mustang stock rebuild little over 9 to 1 compression sealed power flat top pistons these are the pistons that are being made in India. This engine had low compression on 3 cylinders, when disassembling we found 3 pistons with the second ring land broken,, both the 1st and second rings are intact and not broken .. this engine was done by another shop in town that has a very good reputation ,,, any input would be appreciated thanks

[PackardV8]

How long ago? In the beginning, the India facility had some serious QC problems, but supposedly that was worked out as they got more experience.

In any case, consider Silvolite for a stock rebuild.

[piston guy]

Detonation broke the lands. If it was a design flaw all would have broken .

[BillK]

I am going to second what Piston Guy said. Broken ring lands are almost certainly from detonation. I have probably used 20 sets of the Sealed Power pistons for stock engines and have never heard of any issues from a customer.

But its always the engine builders fault

[PackardV8]

we found 3 pistons with the second ring land broken,, both the 1st and second rings are intact and not broken ..

I am going to second what Piston Guy said. Broken ring lands are almost certainly from detonation.

I've seen detonation damage piston tops and top ring lands, but so I can understand it, why does his detonation break the second ring land and not the top?

[jred]

customer does not want to use the same brand.

I ordered in a set of silvolites today should have Friday or Monday ,, I used silvolite pistons for years with no problems but the warehouse here closed up and no silvolites local or at the warehouse we use..
we looked for ring butting there was none,, rings were in tack.
Even called total seal and talked to kevin and said the same thing detonation thanks for the help..

[BillK]

I've seen detonation damage piston tops and top ring lands, but so I can understand it, why does his detonation break the second ring land and not the top?

Don't know why but that is almost always what I see broken. I rarely see the top of the piston broken. I wonder if the detonation slams the top ring downwards and that is what breaks the ring land ?

Also, I am assuming that he means the ring land between the top and second ring.

[DCal]

we found 3 pistons with the second ring land broken,, both the 1st and second rings are intact and not broken ..

I am going to second what Piston Guy said. Broken ring lands are almost certainly from detonation.

I've seen detonation damage piston tops and top ring lands, but so I can understand it, why does his detonation break the second ring land and not the top?

.

It's the second land because that land (not talking about the groove) is usually way thinner than the top land. If we figure that cylinder pressure was 800 lb/sq ft across the top of the piston then it's also the pressure that the top ring sees, and all that is supported by the 2nd land. Consider that any additional spike in pressure such as detonation or pre-ignition could be more than the ring land could support. Given time all the pistons would have broken because as each one goes that's fewer and fewer soldiers to share the load.

[piston guy]

+1 Excellent description DCal. Cast , high silicon pistons are fairly brittle and cylinder pressure spikes exceed the strength of the thinner second land and break it. Forged high silicon pistons are better but the "most ductile" material is forged 2618. Drag race, Nascar , road race , nitrous , blown , all need forged 2618 to survive.

[ProPower engines]

I have a engine that came in 1965 289 ford mustang stock rebuild little over 9 to 1 compression sealed power flat top pistons these are the pistons that are being made in India. This engine had low compression on 3 cylinders, when disassembling we found 3 pistons with the second ring land broken,, both the 1st and second rings are intact and not broken .. this engine was done by another shop in town that has a very good reputation ,,, any input would be appreciated thanks

There was serious QC issues with the India made pistons regardless of what engine they were made for.
They have stopped making pistons there and returned the manufacturing back to the USA but there is still NOS out there on the shelfs of warehouse's that are still the india made junk.

Uniter Engine Machine or Silvolite makes a good piston for those engines. The 289 and 302 use the same exact piston compression heights they used a different rod length as you are aware I am sure.

If it was a true FT with no V/reliefs it would be an early 289 piston the later pistons had a dish after 1965 for sure.
302 was a dish as well till the later 80's came with the 5Lt HO which was FT 4 VR pistons in factory engines.

They changes the skirt length of the pistons and the block design was changed so the lower portion of the bores extended further down in the block to better support the skirts as the 302's would break the skirts from lack or support in the lower part of the block bore.

There is also lots of good forged options available that run quieter then the old FM/TRW pistons of yesterday with nicer ring pak choices as well.

[PackardV8]

we found 3 pistons with the second ring land broken

Also, I am assuming that he means the ring land between the top and second ring.

Yes, agree, if it's broken below the top ring, obviously that directly receives the force from detonation.

Wonder what the owner did to a stock 289" to cause destructive detonation? Back in the day, we pounded them unmercifully.

There was serious QC issues with the India made pistons regardless of what engine they were made for. They have stopped making pistons there and returned the manufacturing back to the USA but there is still NOS out there on the shelfs of warehouse's that are still the india made junk.

FWIW, I'd bet the made-in-India failed when the Silvolites would have survived the same stock 289" use.

[pdq67]

I have to ask??

Who took over, "Zollner", "Badger", and, "Triplex or Simplex", stock type cast aluminum pistons??

Like the old steel-strutted cast pistons that W/JCW sold years and years ago??

pdq67

[ProPower engines]

Bager still is around Zollner is part of Sterling I am told never heard of the other 2 but I am sure they got bought up by a much larger player in the industry. The manufacturing plant would be worth more as part of the buy out for the equipment etc. As for the india plants they are still there used by other marketers for other countries production.

I am glad FM brought the piston manufacturing for the most part back to north America but I think they were either under some serious lease terms to allow that level of lower quality to stand for so may years with out correction of the issues that always plagued the finished products. IE sizing, finished appearance of products , and overall weight
when it came to matching for balance corrections part to part and the translation of metric sizing for manufacturing from the millimeters to SAE dimensions for.
Like the difference between .25mm and .010 undersize when it comes to getting bearing clearance right.

As alloy technology improved the steel struts were not used anymore. The weights of pistons changed with the hypereutectic style of pistons became the need for lighter and tighter cabin noise was reduced as well as balancing of the assemblies and alot of times they needed a hyper piston weight like in the GM 4.3 engines. As time went by they changed the piston weights for balance issues as well as adding a balance shaft to smooth the operation.

The basic pin boss struts can be had from suppliers but they are the most basic of pistons for granny's car.

Lots of other suppliers like Packard Ind. or EGGE machine also sell resto style pistons with steel supports in the pin boss areas but strength Vs cost between the true cast struted type pistons Vs hypereutectic alloy pistons.

The hyper style is in alot of cases less cost when comparing to other struted pin area pistons when it comes to just a plain stock replacement.

[pdq67]

PPE,

"Bager still is around Zollner is part of Sterling I am told never heard of the other 2 but I am sure they got bought up by a much larger player in the industry. "

How can Badger be contacted as well as Sterling?

I have heard of the old, "Triplex/Simplex", pistons, but never knew how to get hold of who made them years ago?

Thanks,

pdq67

[ProPower engines]

WTF is the point?
All that older stuff is on the obsolete list at this point anyway.
SO IS ALOT OF POPULAR STUFF TODAY AS WELL.
The time for using parts that are of lesser quality based on durability needs is decided by application + build budget.
IE forged Vs cast crank or pistons. Problem is as manufactures want profit that stop supporting lower cost product lines and start producing dual purpose products more and more. Just look at comp. height options for any piston choice ring choices and dish volumes.

With fuel constantly changing quality compression ratios keep coming down just those by themselves so having to delete or change production of parts to suit all the time for volume customers needs never mind just shelf stock items that are slow movers