Whats Your Definition Of a Engine Builder ??

[Malvn]

I asked this same question a few years ago ??
Question do you feel you need to have a College Degree in this field of work ??
If so Why ??
Thanks In Advance

[midnightbluS10]

Does being an engine builder also incorporate engine design & theory into it? Does one need to be able to optimize a set of heads for a given combo to be considered an engine builder? I can assemble an engine, no problem but I couldn't figure out everything else without sitting down and spending a bit of time on the math to determine what it needs. Meaning these aren't things I know. I'd have to research and make notes, etc... Obviously that means in not a professional like most of you. So I'm sure this question really doesn't even apply to me.

[CamKing]

IMO, an engine builder needs to have a basic understanding of what each part of the engine does, and why. He/She needs to be able to measure the parts, to make sure they're correct. He/She needs to be able to check all the clearances, and make sure they're within spec. He/She needs to be able to degree in the cam. He/She needs to know that when they put the cam or crank in, and it doesn't spin freely, there's something wrong. He/She needs to know to prime the oil system, before starting the engine, and why you should.
That's an engine builder.
To go from engine builder to great engine builder, you just need a better understanding of what each part does, and why.

[modok]

What kind? minimum viable?

A MASTER engine builder would need to have the same metrology knowledge and ability as a machinist, tho may not necessarily machine anything.

I don't agree that an engine builder needs to be an engine designer/engineer, but enough engineering knowledge to reason how any given part of the machine will function.
In the pursuit of mastery all fields of study eventually converge, but there is not time enough on earth for an individual to get there, so we use teamwork.

These days, 99% are are built in factories, by teams people that I assume have very specific job titles.

[modok]

Probably even basic metallurgy and tribology to see that the parts you are using are made of the correct materials for the applicaion, besides being the right fit.

[4vpc]

See answers here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25688

[CamKing]

ability as a machinist, tho may not necessarily machine anything.

My Dad was considered one of the greatest race engine builders of his generation, but he was a crap machinist.
He hired some of the best machinists in the country, and had the ability to measure the machinist's work, to know if it was correct, just don't ask him to machine something on the mill or lathe.

[PackardV8]

To go from engine builder to great engine builder, you just need a better understanding of what each part does, and why.

To design and optimize a combination of parts to be the best at a specific task is when it goes from engine builder to designer.

One of the best engine builders I ever met has thirty years of hand's-on experience in the how. He knows what will work from dissecting failures in OEM and performance engines. He's a genius machinist who can run any machine in the shop, maintain it, repair it, hit the tenths consistently, is meticulous in assembly, but has very little understanding of the why theory.

I've never met any one guy who could do all the above hand's-on and if asked could select and specify the parts to win in an engine family and class of racing he's never seen. That's your master/great engine builder. He may exist; I've just never met him.

[CGT]

I know several really good engine builders, and each have their strengths. Yet, I consider them all great yet in different ways. But it is interesting that like previously mentioned some are better in some areas than others. A quorum of these people can be deadly.

There has been a fella on here on speedtalk over the years that has regularly mentioned that if your not doing your own machine work...that your not an engine builder. Yet this particular person's take and understanding of dynamics is very basic and remedial. I've seen that some with just plain raw machinists. It always struck me as weird...

In a heads up engine building competition, I'd put all chips in (every time) on the engine builder who had a great understanding of how air flows through an engine, understanding off pumping losses, wave tuning etc.....who may have .005 taper in his cylinders or one deck higher than the other , over the raw machinist who has everything to the .0001 but has little to no understanding of dynamics. Those types of guys are really just fancy "assemblers" of others parts to me.

Ideally, you have the machine work on the money, and have an understanding. Basic operations like boring, honing, decking, balancing, valve jobs can be learned pretty quickly, with perfect results on modern equipment.

If your bread and butter day in day out is machining operations, that's where the majority of your mental energy goes and are more likely to excel at that , likewise if your spend the majority of your energy developing things to work better dynamically.......

Im fortunate to rub shoulders regularly with people that are good at all these things, which is awesome but can be very humbling.

[ClassAct]

ability as a machinist, tho may not necessarily machine anything.

My Dad was considered one of the greatest race engine builders of his generation, but he was a crap machinist.
He hired some of the best machinists in the country, and had the ability to measure the machinist's work, to know if it was correct, just don't ask him to machine something on the mill or lathe.

I've read all of what I could find on your dad. He was straight bad ass. I've tired to find out if he wrote any books, but my experience is many guys are so focused on what they are doing, they don't think writing things out is worth the time they could be moving forward.

[gunt]

Well this is a loaded question

one thing no one mentioned , setting up the car dyno , cos there is an issue too , the ability to set up a well designed / built engine , or destroy it as an understanding of the engine and physical set up .

i am only getting in to the machining of engine parts , due the inability to get them done correctly locally , withing 90miles , yet there are loads of engine machinists and combine dyno operations within the area with years of experience , i have used them all and have a wall full of my parts they destroyed with their contact details under each . cranks blocks heads ,

from what i have learnt , definitely have to have the ability to measure everything , deter main failures , but a good OE std engine builder could achieve this , any of the guys we trained could , but for this forum , that's not good enough , the other guy is correct air flow understanding is a must , but there's some wide variety of muppets out there too that love to preach .

[rebelrouser]

I think the term engine builder has a lot of meanings from the posts, kind of like mechanic and technician. So when you mention a good engine builder needs to understand air flow into an engine, then I think that gets into engineering. Any good mechanic or technician can clean, measure, and assemble an engine properly. I always thought of a mechanic as a guy who can fiddle with, adjust, etc. to make an engine run right, and a technician was one who could assemble parts properly using a manual, and if it did not work right they are at a loss to knows why. Now if you want that engine to make more horsepower than a stock one by modifying and replacing parts with aftermarket pieces, then you get into the realm of engineering to do the math, poke on computer program, test on a dyno, etc. Then if you also say a real engine builder does their own machine work, then that guy has to know another set of skills. I have several friends who are very good machinists, but they are not very good at assembling engines. And in saying that, it's not that they cannot bolt an engine together, they do good at measuring, and reading specs, but they don't have the feel, when rolling over a crankshaft to feel if it's smooth, knowing that when you torqued that bolt, and it did not just feel right so you take it back out to inspect the threads. My one machinist buddy built a BBC for his pickup truck, he fired it up and it ran like crap, he messed with it for a couple days and then called me. He fired it up and I said it has a flat camshaft. He looked at me and said how do you know that? I said I can hear it. Sure enough it was flat. And again he followed the specs exactly, the cam company told him that the RV cam needed 140 lbs of seat pressure, I told him I never would have used that much spring pressure on a mild flat tappet camshaft no matter what the cam company told me. We got a new cam and I helped him set the springs and it ran for many years. So the bottom line is, if a customer asks an engine builder to build them an engine, what skill set is the customer expecting? A mechanic, technician, engineer or machinist?

[Walter R. Malik]

There are some really good answers here.
A couple missing is being able to improvise with whatever parts which are attainable at the time, when the "correct" parts can't be gotten in a timely manner and still build a very competitive engine.
Or, taking a basket full of mismatched parts and hand working them to fit, making them all work together creating a competitive engine.

You just don't see much of "critical thinking" being used in engine building, anymore. All that is usually done by somebody else beforehand.

[Malvn]

There are some really good answers here.
A couple missing is being able to improvise with whatever parts which are attainable at the time, when the "correct" parts can't be gotten in a timely manner and still build a very competitive engine.
Or, taking a basket full of mismatched parts and hand working them to fit, making them all work together creating a competitive engine.

You just don't see much of "critical thinking" being used in engine building, anymore. All that is usually done by somebody else beforehand.

I 100% agree with this Sir .
Really like to hear from more members here at Speed Talk

[CGT]

the other guy is correct air flow understanding is a must , but there's some wide variety of muppets out there too that love to preach .

Correct. We have plenty of "airflow" "muppets" lol. But a lot less people that understand or are trying to understand not just airlflow but how air flows through an engine. The guys that view that too statically will always be at a disadvantage in my opinion.