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V8 S10 Engine Ex Manifolds?

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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enigma57
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Re: V8 S10 Engine Ex Manifolds?

Post by enigma57 » Tue May 12, 2020 12:35 am

Econo racer, back in the late '70s, there was a build of a 350, the goal being max torque to power a truck pulling an enclosed race car trailer. This was soon after the Arab oil embargo and the gas shortage hoaxes of the mid-'70s and fuel prices were about 4 times as high as they should have been. The idea was to build a 350 that would make the same torque as a 454 big block to tow such a trailer and get better mileage as well.

Many combinations were tried. The one which did the job made use of an IR intake with Weber carburettors and an Isky hydraulic cam. Isky had a 256 deg. cam and the next step up was a 262 deg. cam. Both were straight pattern cams ground on 108 deg. LSA. After much experimentation, Isky found a dual pattern cam having 256 deg. intake and 262 exhaust ground on 110 deg. LSA worked best. In the '80s, I had Isky grind one for a 300 Ford inline 6 and it was perfect for daily driving and towing. 110 degree LSA would have been fine, but I had them tighten LSA up a bit (ground on 106 deg.) for better off idle response.

This cam would work well in your 400 engine. Isky still lists it for smallblock Chevy......

http://iskycams.com/shop/index.php?main ... ts_id=1107

Regarding cooling, do everything you can to keep the 400 cool. 160 degree thermostat, good water pump, but most of all...... A good radiator of sufficient capacity to do the job. I learned that the hard way when I swapped the 400 Pontiac from my totalled GTO into a '56 Chevy many moons ago. Don't try and band aid a too small radiator by throwing an extra electric fan on it. Space in the S-10 is limited, but larger, more efficient radiators can be fitted. Some of them are listed in the links at the beginning of your thread here. One is a Corvette application, I believe. Use a good fan (mechanical is fine, or electric puller type set to come on at 160 - 170 degrees if you want). And a well fitted fan shroud, of course.

A 600 Holley should work if you can get it to work properly. I never had much luck with them. Primary side was lean and I couldn't get the vacuum secondaries to work right no matter what I did. Went back to my old 780 CFM 3310 dual line Holley and all was well. If you are going to need a new carb anyway, consider the 625 Demon. These were just out when Barry Grant went bust and Holley bought his new Demon carb line. Total new clean sheet of paper design with triple stack boosters on primary side similar to the double stack boosters on Q-jet carbs. Composite fuel bowl like the old Carter Thermoquad to lower temps in fuel bowl. Just a really nice design. Sold by Holley now. Check it out.......

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_sy ... parts/1901

Hope this helps,

Harry

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Re: V8 S10 Engine Ex Manifolds?

Post by Truckedup » Tue May 12, 2020 6:29 am

enigma57 wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:23 pm
Tony, were the manifolds you used the ones that drop straight down from the center?

Image

I thought about mentioning the center dump Chevy II manifolds that curve rearward. But you'd just have to trial fit them and see if they would clear the crossmember in an S-10. They have 2" outlets. The ones Brzezinski modifies have 2-1/4" outlets......

Image

Best regards,

Harry
I used the straight ones, you can buy new ones with a 2-1/2 outlet. The curved ones were found on pu trucks...
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Re: V8 S10 Engine Ex Manifolds?

Post by Monzsta » Tue May 12, 2020 6:44 am

enigma57 wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 1:20 am
Truckedup wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 8:46 am
91 and newer S10's were available with the 4.3 so V8 swap so the steering column should not be an issue with the right manifolds...Summit racing sells many headers for the swap from $150 on up...Cheap tube headers on a daily driver might not work out the best in the long run..
midnightbluS10 wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 11:42 am
I'd look and see if v8s10.org is still up and if not, go to the S10 forums for recent info before I bought that old book from the 90s. Unless it's been updated, you'll probably be looking for outdated parts that don't exist anymore, IMO. I think lo-po Camaro RS manifolds will work.i don't recall what year, though.

https://www.s10forum.com/forums/v8-discussion.10/

http://www.v8s10.org/forum/
I agree, Tony and JC. The '82 - '92 Camaro log type manifolds are probably the easiest and best fitting factory manifolds for this swap. They are a bolt-on and were used on some Malibus and other GM cars as well. Dorman carries new aftermarket replacements if local wrecking yard sources dry up. These aftermarket manifolds are not cast in America and usually require port matching and internal porting to flow as well as originals, though.

Tony, I agree with your take on headers for the S-10 V-8 swap. My experience with running a 'built' 350 on the street in a Vega with the Don Hardy swap kit and full length, long tube headers pretty much turned me off to running headers on the street. Oh, I had run headers in a couple of my '55 Chevys years before with a full length muffled exhaust system and dealt with the inevitable, annoying exhaust leaks. But the V-8 Vega was another thing altogether. Like the S-10, a V-8 was a tight fit in the Vega and that meant there was insufficient air flow past the engine running with the hood on and it got hotter than blazes underhood. With the new more volatile fuels we have now of days, that extra heat would no doubt cause all manner of havoc when running a carburettor...... Vapour lock, heat soak following shutdown (fuel boiling in bowl), etc.

The headers were made in 2 pieces on each side and had to be carefully fitted together as the engine was lowered into the car, one piece from under the car, another from the top (on each side). Worse, they fit so close to the starter that the heat wiped out the starter every other week. You couldn't replace the starter without pulling the passenger side header and you couldn't pull the header without pulling the engine halfway out of the car. Not much fun every other week.

Ground clearance was an issue as well. Parking lot speed bumps and steep drives required front spring replacement with longer springs and a fresh front end alignment to raise the front of the car a couple inches in order not to drag the headers when negotiating these. I bought the Vega from my next door neighbour. He sold it to me cheap because he was darned near bankrupt from paying speeding tickets and was tired of pulling the engine every other week to change starters. I installed taller springs and a heat shield between header and starter. Didn't help the starter live any longer, though.

I was toying with the idea of modifying the passenger side header to weld in bolted flanges that would allow starter replacement without pulling the engine. But there was insufficient room for either the flanges nor to route the tubes further away from the starter. So I pulled the 350 engine and 350 turbo transmission and dropped them into a '79 Z-28 for my wife to drive. This was around 1984 or so.

Best regards,

Harry
I went through these trials with a V8 Chevy Monza. One thing I learned fast was to grab an aftermarket starter, preferably based on the bulletproof Nippon Denso. Second, was that starter swaps were actually not too bad. Forget removing the headers. Drop the removable crossmember and drag link, remove the oil pan and oil pump, and voila! You can sneak the starter out AND fix your oil leak at the same time! =D>

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Re: V8 S10 Engine Ex Manifolds?

Post by novadude » Tue May 12, 2020 8:31 am

econo racer wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 11:20 pm
Thanks for all the info. =D> I actually have a pair of 79 Malibu manifolds. I will probably use the old short water pump. I want to run a fan and also use in conjunction with a big electric. The sticker on the air cleaner said this 400 makes 265 HP. With dual exhaust,aluminum dual plane intake and a Holley 600 vac secondary, plus a a small 252 Hi Energy cam with 425 lift it should make 300 HP easy.
The 80s TPI F-bodies used a manifold that is shaped just like the 79 Malibu manifolds, but it has a 2-1/4" outlet. Not sure how "available" they are anymore, but if you can find a set cheap, that might be a good alternative.

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Re: V8 S10 Engine Ex Manifolds?

Post by econo racer » Tue May 12, 2020 9:03 am

It appears that even if I ran the old short style water pump that there still may not be room for the fan. It will probably cost mega money trying to use the 400 SBC because of heat issues. Will need a 4 flew alum. rad and a cowl hood. Started off gpnna do a 305 and try for 20 mpg. But the 305 is wore out :( . I do have a mild 355 SBC but it might run as hot as the 400.

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Re: V8 S10 Engine Ex Manifolds?

Post by enigma57 » Wed May 13, 2020 4:27 am

You can keep it cool whether you run a 350 or a 400 and there will be room for a fan, econo racer. Here are 2 possibilities ('85 - '89 Corvette heavy duty radiator and the heavy duty radiator for the 4.3 litre V-6 S-10 trucks)......

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/46298- ... gine-swap/

"The good news is that a stock, high-efficiency Corvette radiator can be bolted in with little modification. JTR has tested four different aftermarket custom-built radiators, with moderate success, but found that the ’85-’89 Corvette HD radiator is the best at cooling a V-8 S-truck.

This aluminum radiator features plastic side tanks and is quite similar to the stock radiator used in all ’87 and newer S-trucks, which is why it fits and cools so well. It’s very light, weighing about 10 pounds, and its high-efficiency aluminum core cools extremely well, even in an A/C-equipped truck.

The Corvette radiator is also very thin, offering a ½ inch more clearance between the fan and radiator when compared to a typical 2-inch-thick brass radiator most custom shops would build for this type of swap. A ½ inch may not sound like much, but JTR claims it makes a huge difference in cooling effectiveness because the engine-driven fan can have more pitch, which increases airflow through the radiator. The ½-inch gain in clearance requires some hammering on the radiator core support so that the side tanks sit far enough forward (see photos). The Corvette radiator is also equipped with an automatic transmission oil cooler, which helps because there is very little room to install an auxiliary cooler in front of the radiator. JTR recommends using either an 18-inch-diameter aftermarket flex fan or, after modifying the core support further (see photos), running a factory clutch fan to cut down on highway fan noise."


Image

"Mounting the Corvette radiator in the standard location requires some hammering around the filler neck but is otherwise easy to install using stock rubber insulator pads from an ’87-’93 S-truck and fabricated mounting brackets (PN 12338053) available from Stealth Conversions. More info on radiator mounting is in the JTR swap manual."

Image

"The Corvette radiator can be mounted even further forward by cutting out the top layer of the radiator core support’s lower double-wall mount. The ’87-’93 S-truck rubber isolators can be used with the Stealth Conversions brackets to secure the radiator in the “forward” position. When mounted this way, there is an additional 1-1/2 inches of clearance between the water pump and radiator, allowing use of an engine-driven clutch fan. Auxiliary electric cooling fans are usually not required when running this combination."

Image

"When mounted in the “forward’ position, the radiator’s fill cap will be covered by the core support. An access hole must be cut in the core support for the fill cap, or an aftermarket fill cap and tee fitting (Moroso PN 63730) can be spliced into the upper radiator hose."

Image

"Cooling can be one of the toughest parts of the V-8 swap. This is another possible cooling combination using a HD 4.3L V-6 S-truck radiator—which is wider than the Corvette radiator recommended—mounted with a Flex-a-lite dual electric fan model 210. The fans are thin enough to install between the radiator and long water pump when the engine is set back 1 inch (this is covered in the JTR manual)."

Happy Motoring,

Harry

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Re: V8 S10 Engine Ex Manifolds?

Post by prostreetL-78 » Wed May 13, 2020 6:53 pm

I used the JTR recipe on my 85 S10 Blazer back in the early 90's. I fabricated sliding conversion mounts that bolted to the 2.8 motor mounts based on their drawings. I used Sanderson shorty headers, a 4.3 radiator and dual flexalight fans/shroud that fit the core. Some firewall clearance was needed at the header outlet was needed with the 1-3/4" headers. On the drivers side, the steering shaft is slipped through a couple tubes. My friend owns it now and is still having fun with it. Drives great and runs 11.50's at the track with a 406. https://jagsthatrun.com/collections/chevy-s10
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Re: V8 S10 Engine Ex Manifolds?

Post by falcongeorge » Wed May 13, 2020 7:39 pm

I've been watching this thread for about a week now, and hesitant to comment. I actually own a low 12 second small-block S-10, and for a couple years, it was my daily. Now, I am here in the great NW, so when it rains, it really RAINS, but I gotta say, even with headers, aluminum heads, intake, water pump, rad and mini-starter its 58/42, and in the wet, flat out the most diabolical handling vehicle I have ever owned. The thought of driving one with an all-iron small block in it as a daily driver on wet roads is, to me at least, a little disconcerting. Just sayin....

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Re: V8 S10 Engine Ex Manifolds?

Post by enigma57 » Thu May 14, 2020 12:18 am

I had a 1982 Malibu El Camino SS with the 305 V-8 for a year in the early '80s. It was light in the rear when unloaded and absolutely squirrely in the rain (we get lots of rain here along the Texas Gulf Coast, as well). I had to drive it in the rain as if driving on ice......

Image

An experiment...... With the S-10 V-8, perhaps some sand bags or lead ingots placed in the bed over the rear axle might help. Measure the wheelbase. Make a chalk mark on frame at the halfway mark. Set the S-10 on jack stands placed directly under the frame at the halfway marks. Fill gas tank half full. Add ballast in bed over rear axle (equal on each side) until truck is balanced on jack stands (has 50/50 weight distribution).

Might also consider moving battery to a box beneath pickup bed. Use a heavy truck battery as part of ballast.

Happy Motoring,

Harry

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Re: V8 S10 Engine Ex Manifolds?

Post by falcongeorge » Thu May 14, 2020 4:11 pm

enigma57 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 12:18 am
I had a 1982 Malibu El Camino SS with the 305 V-8 for a year in the early '80s. It was light in the rear when unloaded and absolutely squirrely in the rain (we get lots of rain here along the Texas Gulf Coast, as well). I had to drive it in the rain as if driving on ice......

Image

An experiment...... With the S-10 V-8, perhaps some sand bags or lead ingots placed in the bed over the rear axle might help. Measure the wheelbase. Make a chalk mark on frame at the halfway mark. Set the S-10 on jack stands placed directly under the frame at the halfway marks. Fill gas tank half full. Add ballast in bed over rear axle (equal on each side) until truck is balanced on jack stands (has 50/50 weight distribution).

Might also consider moving battery to a box beneath pickup bed. Use a heavy truck battery as part of ballast.

Happy Motoring,

Harry
I found a better solution, build a chevy II wagon instead! =D> Really, there was more to it than just shitty handling in the rain (I don't really like pick-up trucks, never have, its too new, by about 12 years, the cab is cramped, its kinda ugly, headers are nightmare, 700R-4 has a shit ratio spread, ect, ect )but that was my long-term solution. But yes, some ballast would help. Maybe drive around with a 460 ford motor in the bed :lol: ...Might hurt gas mileage a little...

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Re: V8 S10 Engine Ex Manifolds?

Post by enigma57 » Fri May 15, 2020 12:11 am

I've had several early Chevy II's...... a '62, 2 '63's and a '65 station wagon (I like the older square bodies, always thought the '66 - '67's most folks like looked...... Well, odd).

All seemed fairly well balanced. The '65 wagon more so than the others. I took a donor car ('78 Malibu cop car) and grafted the front 2/3rd of the frame under the wagon. Tied it in at the front leaf spring mounts. Handled well and the disc brakes up front did a lot for stopping as well. This was in the early '80s. I believe there are bolt-in front suspension kits for the early Chevy II's now of days. I must say...... The partial Malibu frame graft really made for a solid, well handling car, though. :D

Best regards,

Harry

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Re: V8 S10 Engine Ex Manifolds?

Post by Truckedup » Fri May 15, 2020 7:46 am

I mentioned the 81 G body El Camino I had a few years ago. 4 speed with a modified 305,about 260 hp...I thought it was balanced pretty well even with a Posi rear that can make it more ass happy. Wet weather is all about the tires and tires they have gotten a lot better since the 80's....I put in S10 front springs ,stiffer rears, urethane suspension bushings, faster ratio PS, it was lowered about an inch or so...It was a good responsive handler on smooth roads. The frame was too flexible in the rear for rough roads. But I was used to old Jeeps and Chevy pu trucks....LOL
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Re: V8 S10 Engine Ex Manifolds?

Post by econo racer » Fri May 15, 2020 8:45 am

I still have my 79 malibu,but I stripped all the AC and heat out of it [-X . Whether I use the S10 or Malibu it will have a hitch underneath. Has to be able to winch and tow just in the tow yard .No more than pulling 1./8th mile on my property. I winch the no starts up on trailer and then back them up to lift. One man show. The Malibu is easier to work on. Has painless kit super easy to work on. Plus the wagon had the 406 sbc already in it. I sure could put the wagon together on the cheap.MMMM #-o

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Re: V8 S10 Engine Ex Manifolds?

Post by bobmc » Fri May 15, 2020 10:56 am

for confined towing a 2 door s10 blazer has shorter wheelbase, modern back up camera makes tow hook up easier than the old ways

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Re: V8 S10 Engine Ex Manifolds?

Post by enigma57 » Fri May 15, 2020 9:40 pm

Econo racer, go for the wagon. If you are only using it to tow short distances in the yard and you already have the 400 in there...... Just reinforce the frame at the rear when adding your tow hitch and drop in a stronger rearend with gearing optimized for what you are doing. Think GM truck or 8.5" Suburban rearend with new set of 4.56 or 4.88 rear gears. Don't worry about width and tire clearance. Just add stronger rear springs and shocks to carry the load and radius rear wheel openings as necessary.

Only don't do it like this...... Allow for vertical suspension travel of 3" above rear tire with weight of car resting on suspension.......



And if your transmission goes South one day, drop a 400 turbo in there. Should make a good tow vehicle for the yard. Larger radiator wouldn't hurt, either.

Best regards,

Harry

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