We are currently running on the new domain and server: www.Speed-Talk.com

IMPORTANT: Update your bookmarks to https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/
(Right-click the URL and select "Bookmark this link")

Valve seals with dry sump setup?

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

Post Reply
65dragster
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:55 pm
Location: Clipper Mills CA

Valve seals with dry sump setup?

Post by 65dragster » Fri May 15, 2020 10:34 am

I’ll start by saying I know almost nothing about dry sump oiling systems. A buddy just bought a set of Pro Topline 235 cast iron heads off a “trophy truck” motor that ran a dry sump. He was told that the heads would need to have oil seals installed because they aren’t used with a dry sump setup. I have no idea, but it looks like a blue seal can be seen through the valve springs. Probably need to take them to the machine shop, but I figured the crew here would know and could explain why no seals are used with a dry sump. Last question, even un-ported, are those heads decent for a 400+ inch SBC drag motor?

Kevin Johnson
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 8684
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am
Location:

Re: Valve seals with dry sump setup?

Post by Kevin Johnson » Fri May 15, 2020 11:54 am

The 2006 Ford GT used a dry sump and the online parts catalog lists valve stem seals.

I am seeing an OEM valve seal part number for the dry sump equipped Mercedes M100 6.9 engine.

So, at least two examples of OEM dry sumped engines used valve stem seals.

I am sure some/many builders do not use them but at least you have a starting point.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21420

mag2555
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3008
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:31 am
Location:

Re: Valve seals with dry sump setup?

Post by mag2555 » Fri May 15, 2020 12:12 pm

If the motor is not going to be run in a small 2000 rpm range with a dry sump then you still need seals.

houser45
Pro
Pro
Posts: 226
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:05 pm
Location:

Re: Valve seals with dry sump setup?

Post by houser45 » Fri May 15, 2020 12:16 pm

It would be wise to use them on the intake guides, I do not use them on the exhaust. You do not need them and valve guide manufacturers will tell you a little oil on the exhaust stems will help with the life of the guide with no downsides.

65dragster
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:55 pm
Location: Clipper Mills CA

Re: Valve seals with dry sump setup?

Post by 65dragster » Fri May 15, 2020 12:36 pm

Good information. Any thoughts on the Pro Topline 235 cc heads for a drag application?

GLHS60
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 998
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:55 am
Location: Sherwood Park, Alberta, Canada

Re: Valve seals with dry sump setup?

Post by GLHS60 » Fri May 15, 2020 1:40 pm

Wasn't there a recent Corvette with a dry sump Engine as well??

Carious if it had valve deals as its no doubt a push rod Engine.

I believe the Engines you mentioned are both OHC or DOHC.

Not that it probably matters.

I like the word Engine.

Thanks
Randy

.


Kevin Johnson wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 11:54 am
The 2006 Ford GT used a dry sump and the online parts catalog lists valve stem seals.

I am seeing an OEM valve seal part number for the dry sump equipped Mercedes M100 6.9 engine.

So, at least two examples of OEM dry sumped engines used valve stem seals.

I am sure some/many builders do not use them but at least you have a starting point.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21420
Sherwood Park
Alberta,Canada
There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.

User avatar
MadBill
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 14633
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:41 am
Location: The Great White North

Re: Valve seals with dry sump setup?

Post by MadBill » Sat May 16, 2020 9:32 pm

The seal/no seal question does not relate to wet vs. dry sump; it's a matter of crankcase vacuum or not. The former, more common in dry sump systems, particularly with vacuum in the mid-teens or higher, reduces the pressure differential that helps draw oil down the guides and can starve them (especially the exhaust side) for lube.
Occasionally, seals are still used (more often on the intake) but in modified form, often by removing the garter spring that many designs use.
Felix, qui potuit rerum cognscere causas.

Happy is he who can discover the cause of things.

Kevin Johnson
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 8684
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am
Location:

Re: Valve seals with dry sump setup?

Post by Kevin Johnson » Sat May 16, 2020 10:00 pm

Little bird chirped at a few dendrites and axons.

Seems like some full vacuum engines with dry sumps flood the heads to keep the valves springs cool.

Perhaps Jay would be willing to comment.

65dragster
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:55 pm
Location: Clipper Mills CA

Re: Valve seals with dry sump setup?

Post by 65dragster » Sat May 16, 2020 10:06 pm

There are seals on the intake but not the exhaust. For a drag race only motor and a traditional wet sump pan, will this work, or should I have seals installed on the exhaust side? If it has a slight puff of smoke on start up, that does not bother me.

Kevin Johnson
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 8684
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am
Location:

Re: Valve seals with dry sump setup?

Post by Kevin Johnson » Sun May 17, 2020 4:19 am

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 10:00 pm
Little bird chirped at a few dendrites and axons.

Seems like some full vacuum engines with dry sumps flood the heads to keep the valves springs cool.

Perhaps Jay would be willing to comment.
Many old tech articles have been stripped, unfortunately.

viewtopic.php?p=40197#p40197
Post by cmw » Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:12 am
Valve spring cooling is the key for endurance of the spring. Coating springs has not proven to do anything. Coating with a moly or what ever you dare to spray on the springs is just not good. Reason being that there are binders that hold this stuff on the springs, but anyone that has ever done this knows that it does come off but the coating company they call it burnishing. Having moly in your engine is not good. It is like pouring sand in the engine. I say this because of all the scratches you find on cylinders, pistons, bearings and anything else oil gets in contact with. The Nascar engine builders are now flooding the valve cover to cool everthing on top of the head to controll cooling of valve train. I supply alot of the teams with a special spring lube and a oil additives.
Bob Cousimano
CMW Oil Company
CMW Motorsports Manufacture Aftermarket Porsche Billet Heads, Cylinder head Flow development, Engine Dyno Service

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp-07 ... der-heads/
Owner Matt Bieneman has gotten rid of the valve seal by using an O-ring inside the valveguide. The advantage of this is that it allows the guide to be taller (equal to the height of the top of the old valve seal) without limiting valve lift.May 15, 2007
ctrp_0706_07_z-r07_cylinder_heads-valveguide_o_ring.jpg

You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

naukkis79
Pro
Pro
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:14 am
Location:

Re: Valve seals with dry sump setup?

Post by naukkis79 » Sun May 17, 2020 6:05 am

65dragster wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 10:06 pm
There are seals on the intake but not the exhaust. For a drag race only motor and a traditional wet sump pan, will this work, or should I have seals installed on the exhaust side? If it has a slight puff of smoke on start up, that does not bother me.
As exhaust valve stems leaking outputs oil straight into exhaust result isn't smoke on startup but when engine is on working temperature. With tight valve stems and not much oil in rockers that smoke could be pretty minor - but with loose stems and good rocker oiling result is not only smoke but also oil drops coming out from exhaust.

Coloradoracer
Expert
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:48 pm
Location: Lehigh Acres, FL.
Contact:

Re: Valve seals with dry sump setup?

Post by Coloradoracer » Mon May 18, 2020 6:40 am

I run a dry sump on my stuff and seals on both intake and exhaust. I will not run an engine without valve stem seals. Even my buddies blown alky deal has them on intake and exhaust.....oil in the combustion chamber will cause detonation among other things.....there is no disadvantage to running them at all.....
Mark Goulette
Owner/Driver of the Livin' The Dream rear engine dragster
Speed kills but it's better than going slow!
http://www.livinthedreamracing.com
Authorized Amsoil Retailer

engineguyBill
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 1185
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:15 am
Location: Gold Canyon, AZ

Re: Valve seals with dry sump setup?

Post by engineguyBill » Mon May 18, 2020 1:06 pm

I run seals on both intake and exhaust guides on all engines, from street performance to maximum-effort race applications. I use positive type seals on all applications, my personal favorite is the Teflon PC seal, when there is sufficient valve spring clearance. One thing that is very important is to install the valves with maxiumum stem to guide clearance when installing positive type valve seals. This allows sufficient amount of oil in this location, if stem clearance is too tight the stems will gall and might even seize. The reason that I use PC Teflon seals is the fact that the have a slight taper towards the ID of the top surface of the seal, which acts as an oil reservoir thereby metering a slight amount of oil to the valve guise each time the valve opens.
Bill

Perfect Circle Doctor of Motors certification
SAE Member (29+ years)
ASE Master Certified Engine Machinist (+ two otherASE Master Certifications)
AERA Certified Professional Engine Machinist

Post Reply