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Oil Smoke driving me crazy

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Raybo
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Re: Oil Smoke driving me crazy

Post by Raybo » Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:22 am

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:26 pm
Raybo wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 6:58 pm
UPDATE
Swapped to the 1205 gasket with gasgacinch under the gasket. SO far so good. Got it up to operating temp and little smoke. I think it was residual. Shut it down and let it get a good heat soak and restarted with no smoke. Thanks for all the help. I appreciate each persons input.
Going back to this post.

What exactly were the conditions that led up to smoke being an issue again?
Another observation I made is the oil seems to drain to rear holes only in the heads.This is only in the truck because of the angle the engine sits. AFR keeps saying the seals are submerged in oil..

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Re: Oil Smoke driving me crazy

Post by Kevin Johnson » Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:38 am

Raybo wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:22 am
Kevin Johnson wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:26 pm
Raybo wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 6:58 pm
UPDATE
Swapped to the 1205 gasket with gasgacinch under the gasket. SO far so good. Got it up to operating temp and little smoke. I think it was residual. Shut it down and let it get a good heat soak and restarted with no smoke. Thanks for all the help. I appreciate each persons input.
Going back to this post.

What exactly were the conditions that led up to smoke being an issue again?
Another observation I made is the oil seems to drain to rear holes only in the heads.This is only in the truck because of the angle the engine sits. AFR keeps saying the seals are submerged in oil..
Do you remember whether there was oil in all the runners on disassembly or only in the runners at the rear of the engine? It sounded previously like the runners all had oil in them.

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Re: Oil Smoke driving me crazy

Post by Belgian1979 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:34 am

Raybo wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:08 pm
Kevin Johnson wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:26 pm
Raybo wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 6:58 pm
UPDATE
Swapped to the 1205 gasket with gasgacinch under the gasket. SO far so good. Got it up to operating temp and little smoke. I think it was residual. Shut it down and let it get a good heat soak and restarted with no smoke. Thanks for all the help. I appreciate each persons input.
Going back to this post.

What exactly were the conditions that led up to smoke being an issue again?
Little smoke on the run stand, figured it was residual. Put engine back in the truck and once it gets a good heat soak its smoking again
Assuming that it was run up to operating temp on the run stand, you will need to look at what makes operation on the engine stand different than in the actual car.

Kevin Johnson
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Re: Oil Smoke driving me crazy

Post by Kevin Johnson » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:20 am

Belgian1979 wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:34 am
Raybo wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:08 pm
Kevin Johnson wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:26 pm


Going back to this post.

What exactly were the conditions that led up to smoke being an issue again?
Little smoke on the run stand, figured it was residual. Put engine back in the truck and once it gets a good heat soak its smoking again
Assuming that it was run up to operating temp on the run stand, you will need to look at what makes operation on the engine stand different than in the actual car.
More tilting/installed-angle in the truck. However, this would tend to suggest that just the runners near the tranny would show oil. Is this the case?

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Re: Oil Smoke driving me crazy

Post by Raybo » Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:29 pm

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:20 am
Belgian1979 wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:34 am
Raybo wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:08 pm


Little smoke on the run stand, figured it was residual. Put engine back in the truck and once it gets a good heat soak its smoking again
Assuming that it was run up to operating temp on the run stand, you will need to look at what makes operation on the engine stand different than in the actual car.
More tilting/installed-angle in the truck. However, this would tend to suggest that just the runners near the tranny would show oil. Is this the case?
Correct on the angling. All runners have oiling issues. All the oil wants to use the rear drain hole and it seems to flood the entire VC area.

Kevin Johnson
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Re: Oil Smoke driving me crazy

Post by Kevin Johnson » Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:34 pm

Raybo wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:29 pm
Kevin Johnson wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:20 am
Belgian1979 wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:34 am


Assuming that it was run up to operating temp on the run stand, you will need to look at what makes operation on the engine stand different than in the actual car.
More tilting/installed-angle in the truck. However, this would tend to suggest that just the runners near the tranny would show oil. Is this the case?
Correct on the angling. All runners have oiling issues. All the oil wants to use the rear drain hole and it seems to flood the entire VC area.
That makes me suspect the gasket sealing and/or geometric mating of the surfaces as others have suggested. Gasgacinch apparently is not impervium.

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Re: Oil Smoke driving me crazy

Post by Raybo » Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:36 pm

ProPower engines wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:01 pm
I would measure the stems and just use a new press in guide and fit the valves to them.
Liner-ing some guides can be a PITA as the section of guide that is not encased in the head will grow and spring back smaller creating a tapered area of the exposed part.
Measure and ream .0003 to .0005 undersize and finish with a hone to final size for .0008 to .001 clearance.
if the exhaust is less then .002 at this point they will be fine for a week end warrior street car.
.0016” guide clearance on intake
.0018” guide clearance on exhaust.

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Re: Oil Smoke driving me crazy

Post by Raybo » Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:37 pm

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:34 pm
Raybo wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:29 pm
Kevin Johnson wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:20 am


More tilting/installed-angle in the truck. However, this would tend to suggest that just the runners near the tranny would show oil. Is this the case?
Correct on the angling. All runners have oiling issues. All the oil wants to use the rear drain hole and it seems to flood the entire VC area.
That makes me suspect the gasket sealing and/or geometric mating of the surfaces as others have suggested. Gasgacinch apparently is not impervium.
I sealed it again before teardown with ultra black around the ports. No change.

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Re: Oil Smoke driving me crazy

Post by Kevin Johnson » Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:55 pm

Raybo wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:37 pm
Kevin Johnson wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:34 pm
Raybo wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:29 pm

Correct on the angling. All runners have oiling issues. All the oil wants to use the rear drain hole and it seems to flood the entire VC area.
That makes me suspect the gasket sealing and/or geometric mating of the surfaces as others have suggested. Gasgacinch apparently is not impervium.
I sealed it again before teardown with ultra black around the ports. No change.
Are you sure the surface was scrupiously clean of oils? A microscopic layer of oil is a leak. I include a set of caveats for people using RTV products to seal oil pan rails -- I believe Ultra-Black is vulnerable to this.

The chemistry of Gasgacinch is such that it would tolerate oil contamination for an initial seal but excessive thickness would leave it vulnerable to attack by the same token.

Raybo
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Re: Oil Smoke driving me crazy

Post by Raybo » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:03 pm

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:55 pm
Raybo wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:37 pm
Kevin Johnson wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:34 pm


That makes me suspect the gasket sealing and/or geometric mating of the surfaces as others have suggested. Gasgacinch apparently is not impervium.
I sealed it again before teardown with ultra black around the ports. No change.
Are you sure the surface was scrupiously clean of oils? A microscopic layer of oil is a leak. I include a set of caveats for people using RTV products to seal oil pan rails -- I believe Ultra-Black is vulnerable to this.

The chemistry of Gasgacinch is such that it would tolerate oil contamination for an initial seal but excessive thickness would leave it vulnerable to attack by the same token.
When I get the long block built I’ll do what Greg West suggested with lead shot.

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Re: Oil Smoke driving me crazy

Post by Raybo » Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:26 pm

E509C536-E731-45D8-86AC-62A9446555B2.jpeg
Pistons 1 and 2 didn’t show this. Almost all others did.
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ProPower engines
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Re: Oil Smoke driving me crazy

Post by ProPower engines » Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:56 pm

Raybo wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:36 pm
ProPower engines wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:01 pm
I would measure the stems and just use a new press in guide and fit the valves to them.
Liner-ing some guides can be a PITA as the section of guide that is not encased in the head will grow and spring back smaller creating a tapered area of the exposed part.
Measure and ream .0003 to .0005 undersize and finish with a hone to final size for .0008 to .001 clearance.
if the exhaust is less then .002 at this point they will be fine for a week end warrior street car.
.0016” guide clearance on intake
.0018” guide clearance on exhaust.
Thats still much bigger then I would start with and an aluminum head does not grow like iron causing guides to enlarge with heat cycles as well.
I would get them down to the minimum before reasembley.

On another note is it possible there is oil being sucked into the threaded area that intrudes the intake port from the rocker studs> This seal can be interrupted as the heads get warned up and allow oil to pass by the threads.
AN anaerobic sealer is prefered while a minimum of 50 lbs torque on the studs. This is if all the cyl. are experiencing the issue of oil. If it is just selected ports it may also be possible that there may be porosity issues with the head that is allowing oil to get into selected ports.

Pressure test the ports with the head warmed up may reveal an issue it that area.
Real Race Cars Don't Have Doors

BillK
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Re: Oil Smoke driving me crazy

Post by BillK » Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:06 pm

Raybo wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:26 pm
E509C536-E731-45D8-86AC-62A9446555B2.jpeg
Pistons 1 and 2 didn’t show this. Almost all others did.
Hard to tell for sure by your picture but is there a support rail under the oil ring ? The scarring is usually from detonation.
Bill Koustenis
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Waldorf Md

www.enginerepairshop.com

Raybo
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Re: Oil Smoke driving me crazy

Post by Raybo » Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:46 pm

BillK wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:06 pm
Raybo wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:26 pm
E509C536-E731-45D8-86AC-62A9446555B2.jpeg
Pistons 1 and 2 didn’t show this. Almost all others did.
Hard to tell for sure by your picture but is there a support rail under the oil ring ? The scarring is usually from detonation.
Support rail is in place. Totally detonated. 10.5:1 on 93. Not sure what happend there.

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Re: Oil Smoke driving me crazy

Post by Raybo » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:22 pm

39D65BF8-CB2D-45F3-A1C8-2C8A120B1522.jpeg
I’ve lost confidence that I can build this engine. I’ve built many engines although I wouldn’t call myself an expert. I’m always trying to learn. I’m scared to put this thing back together and have this happen again.
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