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Trouble getting the correct rings - What is going on?

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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modok
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Re: Trouble getting the correct rings - What is going on?

Post by modok » Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:31 am

Either, there is something wrong with oil scraper spring, OR
you are not using the right procedure to install the rails over it.

I have installed many of that kind of oil ring, and not had any problems with them,
however it IS possible there is a problem. I think I understand what you are describing, it could happen.

What happened to the hastings ring set?...use the oil rings from that?



Is the old ring steel?......bend it and find out.

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Re: Trouble getting the correct rings - What is going on?

Post by Sparksalot » Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:32 am

Those oil rings are easy to install and need no modifications. Whatever you did to change the abutment of the spring element decreased the outward force on the oil ring rails.

The technique is to locate the spring ends together and hold them so while winding the lower oil rail into place. That capitates the spring, then simply wind the top rail into place.

If you see it done it's simple with zero drama. Do you have a mentor?

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Re: Trouble getting the correct rings - What is going on?

Post by Nut124 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:45 am

superpursuit wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:42 pm
I can install a full set of V8 rings onto the pistons, including the 3 piece oil rings, in just a few minutes as I think most people on this site could. This style of oil ring is by far the most common type with millions upon millions being used.

Allan.
I think I see the trick now. Once the rails are in place the ends stay butted a lot better. Thanks!

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Re: Trouble getting the correct rings - What is going on?

Post by Truckedup » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:14 am

There have been complaints about the fit of Hastings rings on vintage British bikes, gaps are too large.
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Re: Trouble getting the correct rings - What is going on?

Post by Nut124 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:12 pm

I received a set of Hastings 84.50 rings today.

The Hastings oil ring spacer has the zic-zac in a 90 degrees different plane vs the Grant ring and is easy and rather idiot proof to install compared to the Grant. I think I will use these oil rings.

Of the three rings; Off the old pistons, unknown make, Grant and Hastings, there is considerable difference in axial pressure.

The old ring out of the engine is by far the stiffest by quite a margin.

The Grant is way softer than the old ring and the Hasting is a bit softer than the Grant.

I'm thinking of using the Hastings rings.

My only concern: Do (Hastings) cast rings hold up in a high revving engine that could see some track use?

I'm spending a lot of $$ on this build and do not mind spending on rings if it reduces the chance of a ring failure.

Do not want this.

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Re: Trouble getting the correct rings - What is going on?

Post by modok » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:49 pm

Grant and Hastings sell many kinds of rings.
You will have to look at the part number to see what kind of rings you have purchased

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Re: Trouble getting the correct rings - What is going on?

Post by AC sports » Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:23 am

The cast top ring is not recommended for those engines. Esp if your pistons have a little excess ring groove slop. Hastings do make a steel top ring version. It's in their catalogue.

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Re: Trouble getting the correct rings - What is going on?

Post by Mark O'Neal » Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:23 am

Nut124 wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:45 pm
OK. I'm not a fan of the Grant oil ring spacer spring at all.

The oil ring is a 3-piece design where the spacer ring both separates the two thin oil rings and provides radial pressure. The ends of the spacer spring are marked in two different colors and they shall not overlap in the groove when installed.

However, as received, I tried installing the oil rings multiple times and invariably, the spacer ring ends fail to butt and jump to overlap. This creates a situation where there is inadequate radial clearance, excessive pressure, for the oil rings at the point of overlap and lack of radial pressure elsewhere around the bore.

I just spent about 45minutes working on the spacers, filing a small groove at one end for the other end to sit in so they butt together rather than jumping to overlap.

What are the odds of a typical shop getting these installed correctly without spending hours tweaking? Not good IMHO.
Well.......they've been getting installed for 95 years or so. So my guess is that the odds of them working is pretty good..... :D :D

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Re: Trouble getting the correct rings - What is going on?

Post by Nut124 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:47 pm

Ordered a set of conventional (vs gapless) steel top rings from Total Seal. Expensive! Could not find such from Hastings nor other sources.

Also, with some help from experts, I determinded that the top rings I ran in the engine for 20 years are steel not cast nor ductile. I have no record for where I got them from back then.

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Re: Trouble getting the correct rings - What is going on?

Post by Walter R. Malik » Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:41 pm

PackardV8 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:04 pm
Smokey Yunick told me fifty years ago, "Don't worry about ring gap a few thou too loose. You'll never notice that. Now, a few thou too tight; that'll kill ya."
Yes ... preferred ring end gap is a minimum measurement.
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Re: Trouble getting the correct rings - What is going on?

Post by Nut124 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:56 pm

For any Fiat Twincam builders, the Total Seal custom quote # is #487836. These are stainless AP rings with a top inside bevel cut, like OEM.

Not cheap.

I fitted them into the 84.4mm bore. There was a few thou of overlap. I filed them to 0.011 gap to be checked and finished later in better light and with better judgement.

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