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Modification advice for 331 Ford

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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blackford
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Re: Modification advice for 331 Ford

Post by blackford » Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:11 pm

I almost changed to Canfields (2nd gen) years ago because the results were so good...but they went out of business. I think they were 2nd gen 195s if I remember correctly.
65 Mustang FB, 331 custom built with 289 H beam rods and 383W piston, 282S cam, Ported DOOEs, T5z, 9" 3.89 gears. 430HP@6500

2013 Corvette 427 Convertible daily driver

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Re: Modification advice for 331 Ford

Post by mt-engines » Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:35 pm

blackford wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:11 pm
I almost changed to Canfields (2nd gen) years ago because the results were so good...but they went out of business. I think they were 2nd gen 195s if I remember correctly.
I personally loved the canfield heads. Ported they made a bunch of power for a reasonable price.

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Re: Modification advice for 331 Ford

Post by F-BIRD'88 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:55 pm

blackford wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:57 pm
F-BIRD'88 wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:32 pm
Low speed drivability.. If you have eliminated the pcv valve it throws off the carb calibration.. Right in the area it matters

If you are using higher ratio rockers AND you set the valve lash much tighter than cam card this increases valve seat to seat duration and valve overlap...
Effects low speed drivability.
Yes, especially tightening the lash. Tony Denesenko (Moneymaker Racing) told me years ago that the cam i'm using was designed for a Chevy dia lifter and that I could run the Comp 282S much tighter than .022 on a SBF. I set it to .015 which is the setting where you get advertised duration (236@.050) according to the Comp Lobe catalog.

The .015" lift duration is at the lobe. So to get that at the valve
you X by rocker arm ratio 1.7:1 So lash point is .026"
Then the seat to seat duration is 282°
May want to try a midpoint happy medium after trying the .026" lash setting... This may help drivability.
It will run fine set at .015" valve lash but the seat to seat duration is over 300° like this.. Something to try..

The magnum cams allow a varience in lash S tuning element. Yes yours is a .842 lifter based grind but the 1.7 rr helps intensify it. Whats going on at the valve is what matters.

On that series of cams Comp recomends not going more than .030" valve lash. If the valvetrain is rather noisey your setting is likely too loose

blackford
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Re: Modification advice for 331 Ford

Post by blackford » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:32 pm

F-BIRD'88 wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:55 pm
The .015" lift duration is at the lobe. So to get that at the valve
you X by rocker arm ratio 1.7:1 So lash point is .026"
Then the seat to seat duration is 282°
May want to try a midpoint happy medium after trying the .026" lash setting... This may help drivability.
It will run fine set at .015" valve lash but the seat to seat duration is over 300° like this.. Something to try..

The magnum cams allow a varience in lash S tuning element. Yes yours is a .842 lifter based grind but the 1.7 rr helps intensify it. Whats going on at the valve is what matters.

On that series of cams Comp recommends not going more than .030" valve lash. If the valvetrain is rather noisey your setting is likely too loose
Wow, I hadn't thought about it that way, but makes total sense. Now I know why this cam has behaved as though it were a bigger cam. So lobes lash is .009 then with .015 valve lash. So if you are estimating my seat duration is around 300 and not 282...is the .050 duration potentially that much larger also? In other words, 254 instead of 236?
65 Mustang FB, 331 custom built with 289 H beam rods and 383W piston, 282S cam, Ported DOOEs, T5z, 9" 3.89 gears. 430HP@6500

2013 Corvette 427 Convertible daily driver

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Re: Modification advice for 331 Ford

Post by F-BIRD'88 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:31 pm

The camshaft does not change.. What goes on at the valve changes. Eg VALVE seat to seat duration and overlap changes as you change the lash.

The cam is still a 236° @.050" cam .

But what goes on at the valve changes .
.050 x 1.7= .085 (valve) - .015{lash} =.070"

050 x 1.7=.085 ( valve) - .026(lash)=.059"

Lift cam lift ..330" valve lift .561" gross
valve lift w.015" lash .546"
" " " w/.026" lash .535"
Everything that goes on at the valve gets bigger and longer as you decrease lash. Yes it effectivly acts as a bigger camshaft.
Reset the lash HOT @.026" AND try that out.

whole new car haha✌️

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Re: Modification advice for 331 Ford

Post by F-BIRD'88 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:32 pm

Then maybe try a happy mid point lash setting say between .018" to 024" Find the happy spot .

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Re: Modification advice for 331 Ford

Post by F-BIRD'88 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:36 pm

Yes with very tight lash it can then have effectively have same similar valve seat to seat duration of a 250 deg cam with its normal lash. The key is to find the happy spot for your car within reason.

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Re: Modification advice for 331 Ford

Post by F-BIRD'88 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:45 pm

Your 282 cam if the lash is run at .034" becomes a 270 cam

Duration @.020" (lobe) is 270°

DO NOT RUN IT LIKE THIS ..034" valve lash is too loose
It will be noisey and will increase lobe lifter wear.
Do not go looser than .030" lash

But .026" lash should be pretty snappy compared to .015" lash.

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Re: Modification advice for 331 Ford

Post by F-BIRD'88 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:37 pm

If you don't mind changing the hood I thnk you'd love that Mustang with a Weiand Hi Ram + 2x 650 Eddy Thunder AVS2 carbs. Do this,, Then consider new heads.

You need to get that 'stang to the track on some sticky tires and let the Lobster loose.
Find a used one.. ;-)

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Re: Modification advice for 331 Ford

Post by blackford » Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:27 pm

I really don't mind the cam the way it's set up. I can drive it on the street just fine, but I just have to be careful not to Lug it at low speed or it starts to Buck. I have a 67 GT500 style hood on it now so I might have enough clearance for a higher intake system.
65 Mustang FB, 331 custom built with 289 H beam rods and 383W piston, 282S cam, Ported DOOEs, T5z, 9" 3.89 gears. 430HP@6500

2013 Corvette 427 Convertible daily driver

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Re: Modification advice for 331 Ford

Post by My427stang » Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:50 pm

You know, you could gain some drivability and torque by advancing the cam, you have room to do it too if compression stays the same. Assuming it was on 106, and has been in the car for a while, rocking that thing forward to 103/104, and bolting a set of deeper breathing heads on, I bet it would pull well everywhere without having to make major changes.

Seeing as you are pretty comfortable now, I could see a fresh 104 ICL, with a set of AFR 185s being pretty snappy. 40 cfm more intake flow, let the valve open and close a little earlier, could make a noticeable difference. (of course it assumes you have valve clearance, I am so used to custom pistons that I often forget the issues with out of the box reliefs and radial clearance)

In a perfect world, I'd like to see a smaller intake lobe, but more lift and some split on the exhaust side with the bigger heads, but the engine doesn't care what I think LOL
70 Mustang, 489 FE, TKO-600, Massflo SEFI, 4.11s
71 F100 SB 4x4, 461 FE, 4 speed, port injected EFI, 3.50s

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Re: Modification advice for 331 Ford

Post by frnkeore » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:27 pm

For those that don't know the cam, it's a fairly old school. .842 lifter, SFT, 110 LSA cam. The engine would probably pick up, at least 10 HP, going to the .875 lift rates, w/o any other changes, then you could also add 4-6 deg ex duration, to that. At those specs, I think it would come very close to a average Hydraulic roller if, you used the Howard .875 spec lobes.

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Re: Modification advice for 331 Ford

Post by Geoff2 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:37 am

Crane cams claimed that when advancing or retarding a cam, it should be a minimum of 4* if you want the butt meter to feel the difference.
Advancing the cam will also reduce intake P to V clearance, should be checked.

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Re: Modification advice for 331 Ford

Post by My427stang » Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:47 am

Geoff2 wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:37 am
Crane cams claimed that when advancing or retarding a cam, it should be a minimum of 4* if you want the butt meter to feel the difference.
Advancing the cam will also reduce intake P to V clearance, should be checked.
I agree with all of that, the question is, where was it originally and where is it now after some wear and break in? My gut said 107 ICL-ish, if so, 103/104 will be felt, especially part throttle. I had an old school EE-390 in my 427 once and although it wasn't the fastest thing thing back then, it ran well with a P-sonic and a 1000 Holley (in fact, not sure if he remembers, but the original poster and I had dinner with a bunch of Mustang guys during a Knott's Berry Farm show). In that case, I went from 108 ICL to 105 ICL and picked up 4 inches of vacuum, no other changes, and that was a sloppy old school cam, 300 adv 250 @ .050 108 LSA

All that being said, I was really trying to crutch the 185 heads a little with the cam timing. Not that the 185s are giants on a 331, but I don't think the 165 heads will get him what he wants and a little more part throttle response might make him happy.

As far as cam change, I have gone away from slapping the valves open and closed as quick as I can. Regardless, the Magnum lobes are pretty slow. The Thumpr series of lobes work pretty well when on a normal LSA/ICL. You can drop the advertised 12 degrees and have more .050, and likely pull on pull on that new port harder, but it's just bench racing now. Would have to look at the whole combo and intent for use to really pick a cam.

In the end though, I feel like I have to caveat that maybe it's time to freshen it up, add a forged piston with big reliefs and go modern ring pack. This engine needles to say has been a good one, but 10 HP in the cam, 5 HP in a ring pack, 40 HP in heads, some safety in components, could be a completely different animal and maybe even need a little less RPM if that is what you want
70 Mustang, 489 FE, TKO-600, Massflo SEFI, 4.11s
71 F100 SB 4x4, 461 FE, 4 speed, port injected EFI, 3.50s

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Re: Modification advice for 331 Ford

Post by frnkeore » Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:35 am

So, the one thing that we know that he wants to do, is change out the cam, I believe. So, I have CC and Howards complete lobe list.

First, is Black Ford's cam lobe to compare with others:

----------------------------- Lift at CL
Lobe Aver .050-.200- lift-106 -110 --1.6 --1.7
6002 282-2 236 145 .330 .082 .069 .528 .561

These next lobes are CC, .875 SFT lobes:

7394 262 --236 152 .357 .089 .075 .571 .607
7395 264 --238 154 .359 .093 .078 .574 .610
7404 266 --240 156 .361 .096 .082 .578 .614

This last 2 are the lobes on my CC, camshaft. Note, my much more aggressive, ex lobe has the same "advertised" duration as Black Fords current cam but, both the in and ex aren't even in the same league as the 282, .842 lobe:

7409 278 --252 168 .373 .118 .104 .597 .634
7411 282 --256 172 .380 .126 .111 .608 .646

Howards .875 lobes:

Lobe#----@.020 .050 .200 lift - lash --1.6 ---1.7
FF2363588A 264 236 153 0.359 0.018 .5741 .6100
FF2403685A 268 240 157 0.369 0.018 .5896 .6265

Just as a suggestion, I would use your same .050 duration but, with the .875 lobes and you'll have less seat overlap, much more .200 duration and .046-.049 more lift on the intake. For the ex, I'd go 4 more duration and use a 108 - 110 LSA. ICL ~104

I think it's a safe bet and would make a much different mid range engine.

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