We are currently running on the new domain and server: www.Speed-Talk.com

IMPORTANT: Update your bookmarks to https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/
(Right-click the URL and select "Bookmark this link")

Modification advice for 331 Ford

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

My427stang
Expert
Expert
Posts: 789
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:04 pm
Location: Omaha, NE
Contact:

Re: Modification advice for 331 Ford

Post by My427stang » Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:51 am

All good stuff, I will add again though, likely time to build the whole thing again

Better heads will likely have slightly different valve locations or bigger valves and a hyper piston is not optimal and may not have radial clearance. A 1mm/3mm ring set will gain power too, in addition to safety with a forged piston as power climbs.

Then of course if starting from a clean slate, that allows, compression, quench, heads and cam all to match desired RPM range. Which also means that has to be defined first, although likely unchanged from now if I read it correctly, not to mention the gearing and use of the car isn't changing I assume.

In the end though, that current 331 sure did good for a LONG time, I remember the original adventure. Testament to a good build for sure!
70 Mustang, 489 FE, TKO-600, Massflo SEFI, 4.11s
71 F100 SB 4x4, 461 FE, 4 speed, port injected EFI, 3.50s

F-BIRD'88
Guru
Guru
Posts: 7537
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:56 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Modification advice for 331 Ford

Post by F-BIRD'88 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:40 am

The .020" spec is 270 on the 282 cam. The 282 is @.015

If using the .020" spec as a benchmark it is a 270° cam.

The advertized duration of all those cams is not the seat to seat duration @lashpoint.

blackford
Member
Member
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 4:29 pm
Location: Anaheim Hills, Ca

Re: Modification advice for 331 Ford

Post by blackford » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:11 pm

frnkeore wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:35 am
So, the one thing that we know that he wants to do, is change out the cam, I believe. So, I have CC and Howards complete lobe list.

First, is Black Ford's cam lobe to compare with others:

----------------------------- Lift at CL
Lobe Aver .050-.200- lift-106 -110 --1.6 --1.7
6002 282-2 236 145 .330 .082 .069 .528 .561

These next lobes are CC, .875 SFT lobes:

7394 262 --236 152 .357 .089 .075 .571 .607
7395 264 --238 154 .359 .093 .078 .574 .610
7404 266 --240 156 .361 .096 .082 .578 .614

This last 2 are the lobes on my CC, camshaft. Note, my much more aggressive, ex lobe has the same "advertised" duration as Black Fords current cam but, both the in and ex aren't even in the same league as the 282, .842 lobe:

7409 278 --252 168 .373 .118 .104 .597 .634
7411 282 --256 172 .380 .126 .111 .608 .646

Howards .875 lobes:

Lobe#----@.020 .050 .200 lift - lash --1.6 ---1.7
FF2363588A 264 236 153 0.359 0.018 .5741 .6100
FF2403685A 268 240 157 0.369 0.018 .5896 .6265

Just as a suggestion, I would use your same .050 duration but, with the .875 lobes and you'll have less seat overlap, much more .200 duration and .046-.049 more lift on the intake. For the ex, I'd go 4 more duration and use a 108 - 110 LSA. ICL ~104

I think it's a safe bet and would make a much different mid range engine.
I've seen those lobes before. I think they were called XE Solid lobes. The 7394 was something I was curious about several years ago. It's got 7 deg more duration @ .200 with the same .050 duration. So 7394 plus 7404 with 108 LSA...and some AFR 185 renegades...! I could probably sell my ported DOOEs for a decent price given how well they did. I'd have to probably have to get new headers. My Dougs stepped tri-ys were port matched to my ported and raised exhaust ports which measured 1.48 x 1.25. I could step up to some 1.75 primary long tubes so long as they have decent ground clearance and port them to match the 185s if necessary. My Vic Jr intake would probably have to go too. It was port matched to the raised intake ports that were the dimensions of a Felpro 1262. I like the idea of a RPM air gap.
65 Mustang FB, 331 custom built with 289 H beam rods and 383W piston, 282S cam, Ported DOOEs, T5z, 9" 3.89 gears. 430HP@6500

2013 Corvette 427 Convertible daily driver

My427stang
Expert
Expert
Posts: 789
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:04 pm
Location: Omaha, NE
Contact:

Re: Modification advice for 331 Ford

Post by My427stang » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:40 am

A couple of things from the last post

1. The XE-style lobes can do OK, but when you get to a lower difference between adv and .050, the ramp can become uncontrollable. Likely not at the level of RPM and cam that you would run if you went with a street/strip lobe like that, but they can be pretty noisy compared to what you have. Not to mention, the XE lobes aren't that impressive for power anyway. Best to buy a custom cam that matches the parts.

That being said, just picking from specs can be dangerous. The 7394 and 7404 is NOT a street/strip lobe. In fact, talking to Comp regularly about lobe design, you don't just want to use the numbers to pick a lobe when going custom.. There are plenty of numbers NOT in the catalog, specifically showing acceleration rates and lifter velocity changes that make a race lobe undesirable. I think the 7394 is going to be tough to break in and need some decent spring to turn the RPM you turn, I personally wouldn't go nearly that aggressive. Also note in Comp's catalog that they recommend oiling mods and shaft mounted rockers for those lobes. That's code for "aggressive" and likely not in a good way considering how long you keep your engines together

2. The air gap is a good intake, but I think with your 1st gear ratio and depending on the cam you choose, likely not needed unless you don't think you can keep the shape within the confines of the roof of the 185s. If it won't fit the heads, fine, but if you go Air Gap, be sure to do a little plenum work in the roof especially, and gasket match the best you can

I like single planes and Victor series myself, and I would likely use the single plane and shape it to what I needed, but either would work, as you see now.

Finally, be careful of talking yourself into a cam until you work through everything. I know you have been considering this upgrade for a long time, the heads alone will be significant, but remember all the parts associated with it can add power and/or add additional stress. Something that will stay together a long time, run up and down the PCH, or do a coffee cruise, even if racing too, has a different design than a pure racer
70 Mustang, 489 FE, TKO-600, Massflo SEFI, 4.11s
71 F100 SB 4x4, 461 FE, 4 speed, port injected EFI, 3.50s

F-BIRD'88
Guru
Guru
Posts: 7537
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:56 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Modification advice for 331 Ford

Post by F-BIRD'88 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:32 am

On ALL those .875" lifter ford solids do not assume that the real seat to seat duration will be less.
These cams will not act tamer nor be more "drivable".
The faster the lift rate the more spring pressure required.
May expect less service life in a street car.

Comp recomends that you contact them on these racy MHF cam lobes. (critical break in, proper springs, oiling, service life.
There is no free lunch...

This is why Comp has the street strip friendly mechanical roller cams XR series. Lunati has simular purpose Voodoo and "new" street strip solid rollers that can take you to the next level.

blackford
Member
Member
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 4:29 pm
Location: Anaheim Hills, Ca

Re: Modification advice for 331 Ford

Post by blackford » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:40 pm

My427stang wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:40 am
A couple of things from the last post

1. The XE-style lobes can do OK, but when you get to a lower difference between adv and .050, the ramp can become uncontrollable. Likely not at the level of RPM and cam that you would run if you went with a street/strip lobe like that, but they can be pretty noisy compared to what you have. Not to mention, the XE lobes aren't that impressive for power anyway. Best to buy a custom cam that matches the parts.

That being said, just picking from specs can be dangerous. The 7394 and 7404 is NOT a street/strip lobe. In fact, talking to Comp regularly about lobe design, you don't just want to use the numbers to pick a lobe when going custom.. There are plenty of numbers NOT in the catalog, specifically showing acceleration rates and lifter velocity changes that make a race lobe undesirable. I think the 7394 is going to be tough to break in and need some decent spring to turn the RPM you turn, I personally wouldn't go nearly that aggressive. Also note in Comp's catalog that they recommend oiling mods and shaft mounted rockers for those lobes. That's code for "aggressive" and likely not in a good way considering how long you keep your engines together

2. The air gap is a good intake, but I think with your 1st gear ratio and depending on the cam you choose, likely not needed unless you don't think you can keep the shape within the confines of the roof of the 185s. If it won't fit the heads, fine, but if you go Air Gap, be sure to do a little plenum work in the roof especially, and gasket match the best you can

I like single planes and Victor series myself, and I would likely use the single plane and shape it to what I needed, but either would work, as you see now.

Finally, be careful of talking yourself into a cam until you work through everything. I know you have been considering this upgrade for a long time, the heads alone will be significant, but remember all the parts associated with it can add power and/or add additional stress. Something that will stay together a long time, run up and down the PCH, or do a coffee cruise, even if racing too, has a different design than a pure racer
These were the XE lobes I was thinking about. They don't require any special oiling lifters and a bit larger than the Magnum lobes. I often wondered if I got a cam with 6055 lobes as compared to the 282S. It would have been a tiny bit larger and probably would not have made a huge difference, but i've often wondered. Running my 282S tighter than .015 tappet lash is probably making it very similar to the 6055 in terms of .200 duration anyhow. I didn't know about the master lobe catalog until after I built my engine in '04.

I don't want to use a cam that requires special oiling requirements...too aggressive for my liking. That's one thing I like about the 282S Magnum. It's not super aggressive, it's not noisy, and it's easy on parts. I was unaware the 7394 plus 7404 were MHF solids...they are too aggressive for me. I put a lot of thought in choosing the 282S and will take my time choosing another if I decide to try a new cam. I would ultimately like to talk to a custom cam supplier.

I might just try new heads and 10.5:1 compression and see how it runs.

@ .050” @ .200” 106° 110° 1.5 1.6 1.7
6055 274 236 147 .335 .087 .073 .503 .536 .570
6056 280 242 153 .341 .097 .083 .512 .546 .580
6057 282 244 156 .347 .101 .087 .521 .555 .590
6089 290 252 164 .352 .115 .101 .528 .563 .598
6059 290 252 164 .361 .115 .101 .542 .578 .614
6091 298 260 171 .352 .129 .155 .528 .563 .598
6061 298 260 172 .373 .129 .155 .560 .597 .634
65 Mustang FB, 331 custom built with 289 H beam rods and 383W piston, 282S cam, Ported DOOEs, T5z, 9" 3.89 gears. 430HP@6500

2013 Corvette 427 Convertible daily driver

BobbyB
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 271
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:35 pm
Location:

Re: Modification advice for 331 Ford

Post by BobbyB » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:56 pm

blackford wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:40 pm
My427stang wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:40 am
A couple of things from the last post

1. The XE-style lobes can do OK, but when you get to a lower difference between adv and .050, the ramp can become uncontrollable. Likely not at the level of RPM and cam that you would run if you went with a street/strip lobe like that, but they can be pretty noisy compared to what you have. Not to mention, the XE lobes aren't that impressive for power anyway. Best to buy a custom cam that matches the parts.

That being said, just picking from specs can be dangerous. The 7394 and 7404 is NOT a street/strip lobe. In fact, talking to Comp regularly about lobe design, you don't just want to use the numbers to pick a lobe when going custom.. There are plenty of numbers NOT in the catalog, specifically showing acceleration rates and lifter velocity changes that make a race lobe undesirable. I think the 7394 is going to be tough to break in and need some decent spring to turn the RPM you turn, I personally wouldn't go nearly that aggressive. Also note in Comp's catalog that they recommend oiling mods and shaft mounted rockers for those lobes. That's code for "aggressive" and likely not in a good way considering how long you keep your engines together

2. The air gap is a good intake, but I think with your 1st gear ratio and depending on the cam you choose, likely not needed unless you don't think you can keep the shape within the confines of the roof of the 185s. If it won't fit the heads, fine, but if you go Air Gap, be sure to do a little plenum work in the roof especially, and gasket match the best you can

I like single planes and Victor series myself, and I would likely use the single plane and shape it to what I needed, but either would work, as you see now.

Finally, be careful of talking yourself into a cam until you work through everything. I know you have been considering this upgrade for a long time, the heads alone will be significant, but remember all the parts associated with it can add power and/or add additional stress. Something that will stay together a long time, run up and down the PCH, or do a coffee cruise, even if racing too, has a different design than a pure racer
These were the XE lobes I was thinking about. They don't require any special oiling lifters and a bit larger than the Magnum lobes. I often wondered if I got a cam with 6055 lobes as compared to the 282S. It would have been a tiny bit larger and probably would not have made a huge difference, but i've often wondered. Running my 282S tighter than .015 tappet lash is probably making it very similar to the 6055 in terms of .200 duration anyhow. I didn't know about the master lobe catalog until after I built my engine in '04.

I don't want to use a cam that requires special oiling requirements...too aggressive for my liking. That's one thing I like about the 282S Magnum. It's not super aggressive, it's not noisy, and it's easy on parts. I was unaware the 7394 plus 7404 were MHF solids...they are too aggressive for me. I put a lot of thought in choosing the 282S and will take my time choosing another if I decide to try a new cam. I would ultimately like to talk to a custom cam supplier.

I might just try new heads and 10.5:1 compression and see how it runs.

@ .050” @ .200” 106° 110° 1.5 1.6 1.7
6055 274 236 147 .335 .087 .073 .503 .536 .570
6056 280 242 153 .341 .097 .083 .512 .546 .580
6057 282 244 156 .347 .101 .087 .521 .555 .590
6089 290 252 164 .352 .115 .101 .528 .563 .598
6059 290 252 164 .361 .115 .101 .542 .578 .614
6091 298 260 171 .352 .129 .155 .528 .563 .598
6061 298 260 172 .373 .129 .155 .560 .597 .634
I believe Mike Jones will give you really good advise on whether to keep your current cam or something different. The keys is, as always, defining what you want. I am pleased with the cam Mike did for me.

Post Reply