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Too much oil in sump

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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hoodeng
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Re: Too much oil in sump

Post by hoodeng » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:26 pm

Some valid points by contributors for sure.
The issue that i was describing was churning, where the proximity of the oil surface to the crank was getting picked up and loading the cylinders. People conversant with the engine i quoted would know that the first area to show oil flooding is the air box around the lower cylinder, there is a small drain at the end of the block to expel any fluid that could gather in the air box, if this orifice is restricted in any way the oil carry over is loaded into the cylinders.

As was previously pointed out, with a engine overhaul facility regularly dealing with one type of engine there will be an accumulation of various parts that have been salvaged from scraped out engines, this was identified as possibly the cause of a dip stick exchange that was not spotted.

The engine was not dyno'd to measure or identify the problem, it was just noted in service it was not a particularly happy camper. As we had a number of identical machines [Track tampers] with this power unit, fitters could hear differences in their cycling coming on and off the governor.

If you want to see a remote location field fitter wake in fright and start running, have the gen set change note without a reason!!


Not on topic but as a side note, I run my Harley in winter [we have mild winters here] with barely 1.5 liters of oil in the tank,just touches the bottom of the dip stick,thing barely makes oil temp after a long ride, the head temp sits between 110°and 120°c, perfectly normal.

Cheers.

Jeff Lee
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Re: Too much oil in sump

Post by Jeff Lee » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:50 am

Long ago, on a friend’s Super Stock 350 SBC on a dyno, it was a trick engine and would not RPM near enough and as a result, power was down from anticipated. On the suggestion of an old fart in the dyno room, the Million style deep pan was replaced with a BIG box pan. Picked up something like 1200 RPM and power went way up.
My personal experience on a Stock Eliminator engine that was using excessive oil (sealed tight engine, no dipstick), I knew it must be somewhat low on oil, the last 3 passes were 10.50 each time; at least .05 better than it should have been with weather conditions. I thought that was fantastic until it kicked a rod. The oil pan did not lose any oil. Took it home, drained the pan and filter and there was barely 3/4 qt in the system. My stupid but there’s .05 minimum in “almost no oil”. Just shows the effects on dropping the level further from the crank.
Since then, I install round windows in the pan so I can visually see the oil level is ok.
Latest SS engine of mine has a huge box pan and with 10 qts, the level is 2.75” from the bottom on a 8 1/4” deep flat pan. Basically, I believe in oil pans making (or allowing?) power.
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tenxal
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Re: Too much oil in sump

Post by tenxal » Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:17 am

We've spent a lot of dyno time testing this on our NHRA Stock and Super Stock stuff. Each is unique as to its specific oil pan configuration but similar trends are seen.
The further you keep the oil level in the sump from the rotating assy, the more power you make.

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Re: Too much oil in sump

Post by Krooser » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:48 pm

When I stared trucking in 1972 I was always told to keep the ol level own one gallon to keep consumption down.

The worn out Detroit's we ran did a fine job if that without my help.
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Krooser
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Re: Too much oil in sump

Post by Krooser » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:49 pm

Krooser wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:48 pm
When I started trucking in 1972 I was always told to keep the oil level own one gallon to keep consumption down.

The worn out Detroit's we ran did a fine job of that without my help.
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stealth
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Re: Too much oil in sump

Post by stealth » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:04 pm

Jeff Lee wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:50 am
Long ago, on a friend’s Super Stock 350 SBC on a dyno, it was a trick engine and would not RPM near enough and as a result, power was down from anticipated. On the suggestion of an old fart in the dyno room, the Million style deep pan was replaced with a BIG box pan. Picked up something like 1200 RPM and power went way up.
My personal experience on a Stock Eliminator engine that was using excessive oil (sealed tight engine, no dipstick), I knew it must be somewhat low on oil, the last 3 passes were 10.50 each time; at least .05 better than it should have been with weather conditions. I thought that was fantastic until it kicked a rod. The oil pan did not lose any oil. Took it home, drained the pan and filter and there was barely 3/4 qt in the system. My stupid but there’s .05 minimum in “almost no oil”. Just shows the effects on dropping the level further from the crank.
Since then, I install round windows in the pan so I can visually see the oil level is ok.
Latest SS engine of mine has a huge box pan and with 10 qts, the level is 2.75” from the bottom on a 8 1/4” deep flat pan. Basically, I believe in oil pans making (or allowing?) power.

Yes sir....I’m with you. I added window in the pan a while ago. I can see the level and the tray in the pan for reference...
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Re: Too much oil in sump

Post by Kevin Johnson » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:09 pm

stealth wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:04 pm
...
Yes sir....I’m with you. I added window in the pan a while ago. I can see the level and the tray in the pan for reference...
Mike,

Do you have any videos of the window during a run?

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Re: Too much oil in sump

Post by stealth » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:54 pm

Not yet,

I added this to pan after dyno secession.

My guess is that it will go blurry with oil when running, but static I can see inside for a lot of things like clearance of rotating assembly to tray, and I can even see down to pump and pickup to pan clearance. The window bolts on with reinforced frame behind it so I can take it out if need be. This is how I can see the pump etc.

Actually it’s pretty darn nice to have visibility to some of these things ...with the pan in place.
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Re: Too much oil in sump

Post by Kevin Johnson » Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:02 pm

stealth wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:54 pm
Not yet,

I added this to pan after dyno secession.

My guess is that it will go blurry with oil when running, but static I can see inside for a lot of things like clearance of rotating assembly to tray, and I can even see down to pump and pickup to pan clearance. The window bolts on with reinforced frame behind it so I can take it out if need be. This is how I can see the pump etc.

Actually it’s pretty darn nice to have visibility to some of these things ...
I was at Batteries Plus getting some new UPS batteries and saw the tiny high intensity LED key-chain lights (using four stacked cells). If you prepared a boss and a clever illumination angle, that might be a way to allow a better view of what is going on.


IMG_E1883.JPG
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Last edited by Kevin Johnson on Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tenxal
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Re: Too much oil in sump

Post by tenxal » Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:05 pm

Continued oil pan/oil system/oil level dyno testing on this 327 NHRA Stocker engine was worthwhile. :wink:

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Re: Too much oil in sump

Post by Krooser » Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:42 am

Smokey used a strobe light when taking pix of the oil pan with the engine running. Timing chain, too.
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Re: Too much oil in sump

Post by tenxal » Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:39 pm

Krooser wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:42 am
Smokey used a strobe light when taking pix of the oil pan with the engine running. Timing chain, too.
David Reher has talked about dynoing a wet sump engine with no oil pan.

Big power. 8) Big mess. :lol:

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