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Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:59 am
by gmrocket
hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:47 am
Warp Speed wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:00 am
500,000+ dyno pulls = 27+ pulls per day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year for 50 years.
Impressive!
According to his book published in 2010, it was 200,000 :?
82.1918 a day since 2010!!

My numbers may be off, I didn’t account for any leap years

Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:01 am
by CGT
Screenshot (10).png
This is SAMS highest peak hp pull from the event. 788 like Rocket mentioned earlier.

Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:34 am
by Walter R. Malik
CGT wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:01 am
Screenshot (10).png

This is SAMS highest peak hp pull from the event. 788 like Rocket mentioned earlier.
Just curious ... did that happen in the "run-off" after their qualifying dyno session...?

Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:00 am
by CGT
Walter R. Malik wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:34 am
CGT wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:01 am
Screenshot (10).png

This is SAMS highest peak hp pull from the event. 788 like Rocket mentioned earlier.
Just curious ... did that happen in the "run-off" after their qualifying dyno session...?
No I have all the pulls prior to the "run off"...so maybe they made more than that during that. I don't know. I have your pulls also if you want to see any of that.

Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:26 pm
by CGT
Screenshot (14).png
This may be easier to read..

Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:26 am
by Gregory
Although what is considered street able is subjective, the interesting point (to me anyway) of my original post
and now showing that going from what was the 2011 EMC Xtreme Street rules to the more street able 2019 REC rules
on the same engine only lost approximately 28-32 HP (3.7%) and only approximately 10 HP (1.5%) from 4-7.5K RPMs.
Looks like a small price to pay.
Good guess on David Vizard's part. I don't think he went into the archives and pulled out the numbers.
www.RaceEngineChallenge.com

Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:26 pm
by gmrocket
I was at the 2011 EMC and the 2019 REC...testing at home for the 2011 EMC was very very close to some of my pulls at the EMC, one pull could actually be overlaid and you could hardly see any difference.

Not sure about the comparison of the 2019 REC as I didn’t run that engine on a different dyno, but at the 2018 REC my engine was real close again between pre testing and at the challenge...only change I made after pre testing was moving the cam a few degrees ahead which picked some Power down low and it peaked earlier at the competition...no surprises

From what I’ve seen and experienced, all competitors are dealing with the same dyno at the same place, with similar conditions.

The first competitors to run early in the week are the guinea pigs for the later in the week engines...Monday and Tuesday sets the tune for later engines...I’ve run first thing Monday, later Monday, first thing Tuesday and later Tuesday...the tunes are usually similar between competitors,, if I’ve had to put a lot of jet into it,, everyone else seems to also need the same.

Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:53 am
by swampbuggy
Going back to Gregs opening question. You folks who have been on both of these dynos more than once must have some opinion as to if they read high OR low, moreover, is calibration of the dyno at hand not valid for making them really close, one to the other ? This question is partially to learn from, assuming the answer is accurate. Mark H

Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:54 pm
by David Vizard
Warp Speed wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:00 am
500,000+ dyno pulls = 27+ pulls per day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year for 50 years.
Impressive!
Once again you have jumped to conclusions based solely on what you guys do. If you had called me I could have given you a good few references of folks who have been with me during extended dyno sessions and will confirm what I said.

Those who think that 27 pulls a day is good would not last long as a dyno test subcontractor.

While I was doing cam development/tests we were well over 300 pulls a day. We got down to 29 minutes from shut down to refire for a cam change in a SBC and about the same in a A Series Mini Cooper engine.That is the sort of turn around that can be expected if you plan the test routine and the test engine is configured solely to do tests at short interval periods.

BTW here's a good contact - Dave Mountain - the boss at Mountune racing engines. He is probably the winningest race engine builder in the world. Just give him a call Warp and see what he has to say about a lowly pace of 27 tests a day. Mind you he won't think that much of you for questioning this in the first place but if you want, (FOR A CHANGE) some facts you actually researched instead of guessed then go for it. If that is not enough I can put you on to plenty of big names in the business.

Here's one - while dyno testing at the EMC about 2012 I was doing our runs with Engine tuner Scott Clark and ST poster 900 hp Mark. The engine ran into a problem which I diagnosed before the end of the run. That is the result of mega pulls and experience - not even 15 seconds let alone 15 minutes. Here is another get the job done deal. I wrote my 528 page, million dollar best seller in one day less than 6 months. That included all the drawings, photos, the building of six dyno mules, shooting the front cover etc. All this while I was still supporting half a dozen magazines. If the best you can do at Hendricks is 27 pulls a day then it was not a wise move on your part to turn down the offer of a zero cost ticket to one of my seminars. Just think how much better your fact finding would have been!!!!!

Here's one I want to take you up on Warp - from the big Facebook shindig a while ago when I challenged Scott Foxwell to a camshaft 'tell all' in front of one of my classes. I offered him up to a $1000 just to set me straight on my cam selection technique. It was a 'no go' but he did have a good out. He admitted he is not a cam expert but he has a close working relationship with a person he claims knows far more than he does or for that matter more than I do.

Anyway, once again you made a totally unresearched comment that cannot possible be right.
You claimed - 'Vizard thinks he knows everything!

Ask anyone who actually knows me and they will tell you I am the epitome of the 'eternal student'. That is hardly someone who thinks they know it all! More like it is someone who knows they don't know it all but is making a really concerted effort to close the gap between ignorance and knowledge.

Also -if you had taken up my offer as guest attendee to one of my seminars you might have a better idea of what it takes to run more than a lowly 27 R & D dyno pulls a day. Plus - and this is the point I want to make - I always start my seminars with a comment along the lines of ' if any of you are here because you think I have all the answers you can leave now! Thinks he know everything - what a joke!! And by the way 27 pulls a day hardly justifies the Warp Speed monicker!!!!

Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:35 pm
by mt-engines
David Vizard wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:54 pm
Warp Speed wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:00 am
500,000+ dyno pulls = 27+ pulls per day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year for 50 years.
Impressive!
Once again you have jumped to conclusions based solely on what you guys do. If you had called me I could have given you a good few references of folks who have been with me during extended dyno sessions and will confirm what I said.

Those who think that 27 pulls a day is good would not last long as a dyno test subcontractor.

While I was doing cam development/tests we were well over 300 pulls a day. We got down to 29 minutes from shut down to refire for a cam change in a SBC and about the same in a A Series Mini Cooper engine.That is the sort of turn around that can be expected if you plan the test routine and the test engine is configured solely to do tests at short interval periods.

BTW here's a good contact - Dave Mountain - the boss at Mountune racing engines. He is probably the winningest race engine builder in the world. Just give him a call Warp and see what he has to say about a lowly pace of 27 tests a day. Mind you he won't think that much of you for questioning this in the first place but if you want, (FOR A CHANGE) some facts you actually researched instead of guessed then go for it. If that is not enough I can put you on to plenty of big names in the business.

Here's one - while dyno testing at the EMC about 2012 I was doing our runs with Engine tuner Scott Clark and ST poster 900 hp Mark. The engine ran into a problem which I diagnosed before the end of the run. That is the result of mega pulls and experience - not even 15 seconds let alone 15 minutes. Here is another get the job done deal. I wrote my 528 page, million dollar best seller in one day less than 6 months. That included all the drawings, photos, the building of six dyno mules, shooting the front cover etc. All this while I was still supporting half a dozen magazines. If the best you can do at Hendricks is 27 pulls a day then it was not a wise move on your part to turn down the offer of a zero cost ticket to one of my seminars. Just think how much better your fact finding would have been!!!!!

Here's one I want to take you up on Warp - from the big Facebook shindig a while ago when I challenged Scott Foxwell to a camshaft 'tell all' in front of one of my classes. I offered him up to a $1000 just to set me straight on my cam selection technique. It was a 'no go' but he did have a good out. He admitted he is not a cam expert but he has a close working relationship with a person he claims knows far more than he does or for that matter more than I do.

Anyway, once again you made a totally unresearched comment that cannot possible be right.
You claimed - 'Vizard thinks he knows everything!

Ask anyone who actually knows me and they will tell you I am the epitome of the 'eternal student'. That is hardly someone who thinks they know it all! More like it is someone who knows they don't know it all but is making a really concerted effort to close the gap between ignorance and knowledge.

Also -if you had taken up my offer as guest attendee to one of my seminars you might have a better idea of what it takes to run more than a lowly 27 R & D dyno pulls a day. Plus - and this is the point I want to make - I always start my seminars with a comment along the lines of ' if any of you are here because you think I have all the answers you can leave now! Thinks he know everything - what a joke!! And by the way 27 pulls a day hardly justifies the Warp Speed monicker!!!!
Well scientific data takes time.. As a dyno operator myself 50 in a day would be a hell of a test subject. I'm sure many people could do more if they aren't testing different collectors, merge pipes, intake manifolds, can timing etc. Then there is the fuel temp, cell temp, engine temp, egt, o2 heat up time, flow meter calibration, fuel weight test.. 1 pull every 2 minutes seems like alot of BS, unless you are just trying to stroke your ego on how many pulls you can do. Anyone can do automated endurance testing and walk away.

I'm sure Jay should sign up for your classes. Because clearly Hendricks motorsports has no idea what the are doing. I'm sure there is so much to learn from someone who sells books.

Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:35 pm
by bob460
Vizard vs Warpspeed engine build contest..........best ave power after 300 dyno pulls............LMAO... :twisted:

Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:26 pm
by mt-engines
bob460 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:35 pm
Vizard vs Warpspeed engine build contest..........best ave power after 300 dyno pulls............LMAO... :twisted:
How about 1 attempt, no dyno time before the competition. Your first Cam,lifter headers, oil pan etc is your only.

Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:29 pm
by Joe-71
It gets old being challenged on everything a person says here on some issues, and completely dismissing the experience of some of us as being stupid, or liars. At 74 years old, with four college degrees, master instructor experience, and college teaching automotive classes, I only make a reply when it is something I am directly knowledgeable of, and have experience with. I have been to four EMC challenges, and on two separate occasions at EMC, we made 12 complete dyno pulls in 35 minutes, and that was with plug checks, timing checks, jet changes, and linkage work. It is not uncommon to make 40 or more dyno pulls in a half day on the dyno with carb/header/spacers/timing/valve lash/cam advance or retard/changes to see what a particular engine responds to. I know that for me to make 40 or even 60 dyno pulls, I must have everything preplanned and available for quick changes so that the engine oil, water temp, and dyno water temps don't change to make the testing valid. Not uncommon to have 9 or 10 carbs ready, just as many spacers, and 4 or 5 intake manifolds available for a session. Three head changes in one day in very possible if you set everything up and have a good helper available. So, experience and preplanning makes it very possible for David V to have thousands of dyno sessions under his belt at his age. Joe-71

Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:47 pm
by hoffman900
Out of curiosity, how many duplicate pulls do you guys make for each change?

When I worked in a corrosion lab, we weighed everything at least three times and a calibration check was performed often. A lab scale is much more accurate / precise then a dyno.

Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:54 pm
by 408 Nova
mt-engines wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:26 pm
bob460 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:35 pm
Vizard vs Warpspeed engine build contest..........best ave power after 300 dyno pulls............LMAO... :twisted:
How about 1 attempt, no dyno time before the competition. Your first Cam,lifter headers, oil pan etc is your only.
Won't you just do it yourself there chief, since you're calling Dave out?