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SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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mt-engines
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Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Post by mt-engines » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:15 am

hoffman900 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:47 pm
Out of curiosity, how many duplicate pulls do you guys make for each change?

When I worked in a corrosion lab, we weighed everything at least three times and a calibration check was performed often. A lab scale is much more accurate / precise then a dyno.
Usually 2 for me to verify the change was meaningful and not just a fluke.

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Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Post by mt-engines » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:11 am

408 Nova wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:54 pm
mt-engines wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:26 pm
bob460 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:35 pm
Vizard vs Warpspeed engine build contest..........best ave power after 300 dyno pulls............LMAO... :twisted:
How about 1 attempt, no dyno time before the competition. Your first Cam,lifter headers, oil pan etc is your only.
Won't you just do it yourself there chief, since you're calling Dave out?
Im not the only one to call him out..
go to yellowbullet where the avg person actually races or owns a shop.. they call it out too!

Here is some proof i actually do this for a living. I dont have MY SFDATA on hand but im sure thats in the thousands of engines, 5-20 pulls per engine. Here are some chassis dyno tunes for you. just the efilive tunes are in the 1700 tunes range. figure 5-10 avg pulls finish tune. missing is CMR, TUNERPRO,CATS,HPTUNERS,SCT. oh and the Carb or mechanical injected stuff, self contained systems etc

I dont have any more time to screenshot, crop, resize! you guys wouldnt believe it if you came to the track and watched him get his stuff pushed in.. you'd still be hopping on whatever excuse you can think of.

i could find the dyno files for the Dynojet and SF on my backup drive if you need proof but its clearly a waste of time.. I have no problem proving I didnt adulter the data by making fancy colorful graphs.

People come to me to go fast.. Not because I spend my time making colorful graphs.
I Travelled 5 states during the covid lockdown for private testing. How many have you? This isnt a hobby to many of these guys that spot the BS and point it out! Its the nutswingers on here that just wont stop! Many of us are fed up, so much bad advice is being given, worthless information too.

Ron from R&R performance has the busiest Dyno in the country, he does 400+ engines a year, i think he is just over 10,000 on his 902... ask him how feasible DV dyno claims are.
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Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Post by Warp Speed » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:01 am

David Vizard wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:54 pm
Warp Speed wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:00 am
500,000+ dyno pulls = 27+ pulls per day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year for 50 years.
Impressive!
Once again you have jumped to conclusions based solely on what you guys do. If you had called me I could have given you a good few references of folks who have been with me during extended dyno sessions and will confirm what I said.

Those who think that 27 pulls a day is good would not last long as a dyno test subcontractor.

While I was doing cam development/tests we were well over 300 pulls a day. We got down to 29 minutes from shut down to refire for a cam change in a SBC and about the same in a A Series Mini Cooper engine.That is the sort of turn around that can be expected if you plan the test routine and the test engine is configured solely to do tests at short interval periods.

BTW here's a good contact - Dave Mountain - the boss at Mountune racing engines. He is probably the winningest race engine builder in the world. Just give him a call Warp and see what he has to say about a lowly pace of 27 tests a day. Mind you he won't think that much of you for questioning this in the first place but if you want, (FOR A CHANGE) some facts you actually researched instead of guessed then go for it. If that is not enough I can put you on to plenty of big names in the business.

Here's one - while dyno testing at the EMC about 2012 I was doing our runs with Engine tuner Scott Clark and ST poster 900 hp Mark. The engine ran into a problem which I diagnosed before the end of the run. That is the result of mega pulls and experience - not even 15 seconds let alone 15 minutes. Here is another get the job done deal. I wrote my 528 page, million dollar best seller in one day less than 6 months. That included all the drawings, photos, the building of six dyno mules, shooting the front cover etc. All this while I was still supporting half a dozen magazines. If the best you can do at Hendricks is 27 pulls a day then it was not a wise move on your part to turn down the offer of a zero cost ticket to one of my seminars. Just think how much better your fact finding would have been!!!!!

Here's one I want to take you up on Warp - from the big Facebook shindig a while ago when I challenged Scott Foxwell to a camshaft 'tell all' in front of one of my classes. I offered him up to a $1000 just to set me straight on my cam selection technique. It was a 'no go' but he did have a good out. He admitted he is not a cam expert but he has a close working relationship with a person he claims knows far more than he does or for that matter more than I do.

Anyway, once again you made a totally unresearched comment that cannot possible be right.
You claimed - 'Vizard thinks he knows everything!

Ask anyone who actually knows me and they will tell you I am the epitome of the 'eternal student'. That is hardly someone who thinks they know it all! More like it is someone who knows they don't know it all but is making a really concerted effort to close the gap between ignorance and knowledge.

Also -if you had taken up my offer as guest attendee to one of my seminars you might have a better idea of what it takes to run more than a lowly 27 R & D dyno pulls a day. Plus - and this is the point I want to make - I always start my seminars with a comment along the lines of ' if any of you are here because you think I have all the answers you can leave now! Thinks he know everything - what a joke!! And by the way 27 pulls a day hardly justifies the Warp Speed monicker!!!!
Your just full of AWESOME! =D>

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Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Post by hoffman900 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:10 am

Warp Speed wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:01 am
David Vizard wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:54 pm
Warp Speed wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:00 am
500,000+ dyno pulls = 27+ pulls per day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year for 50 years.
Impressive!
Once again you have jumped to conclusions based solely on what you guys do. If you had called me I could have given you a good few references of folks who have been with me during extended dyno sessions and will confirm what I said.

Those who think that 27 pulls a day is good would not last long as a dyno test subcontractor.

While I was doing cam development/tests we were well over 300 pulls a day. We got down to 29 minutes from shut down to refire for a cam change in a SBC and about the same in a A Series Mini Cooper engine.That is the sort of turn around that can be expected if you plan the test routine and the test engine is configured solely to do tests at short interval periods.

BTW here's a good contact - Dave Mountain - the boss at Mountune racing engines. He is probably the winningest race engine builder in the world. Just give him a call Warp and see what he has to say about a lowly pace of 27 tests a day. Mind you he won't think that much of you for questioning this in the first place but if you want, (FOR A CHANGE) some facts you actually researched instead of guessed then go for it. If that is not enough I can put you on to plenty of big names in the business.

Here's one - while dyno testing at the EMC about 2012 I was doing our runs with Engine tuner Scott Clark and ST poster 900 hp Mark. The engine ran into a problem which I diagnosed before the end of the run. That is the result of mega pulls and experience - not even 15 seconds let alone 15 minutes. Here is another get the job done deal. I wrote my 528 page, million dollar best seller in one day less than 6 months. That included all the drawings, photos, the building of six dyno mules, shooting the front cover etc. All this while I was still supporting half a dozen magazines. If the best you can do at Hendricks is 27 pulls a day then it was not a wise move on your part to turn down the offer of a zero cost ticket to one of my seminars. Just think how much better your fact finding would have been!!!!!

Here's one I want to take you up on Warp - from the big Facebook shindig a while ago when I challenged Scott Foxwell to a camshaft 'tell all' in front of one of my classes. I offered him up to a $1000 just to set me straight on my cam selection technique. It was a 'no go' but he did have a good out. He admitted he is not a cam expert but he has a close working relationship with a person he claims knows far more than he does or for that matter more than I do.

Anyway, once again you made a totally unresearched comment that cannot possible be right.
You claimed - 'Vizard thinks he knows everything!

Ask anyone who actually knows me and they will tell you I am the epitome of the 'eternal student'. That is hardly someone who thinks they know it all! More like it is someone who knows they don't know it all but is making a really concerted effort to close the gap between ignorance and knowledge.

Also -if you had taken up my offer as guest attendee to one of my seminars you might have a better idea of what it takes to run more than a lowly 27 R & D dyno pulls a day. Plus - and this is the point I want to make - I always start my seminars with a comment along the lines of ' if any of you are here because you think I have all the answers you can leave now! Thinks he know everything - what a joke!! And by the way 27 pulls a day hardly justifies the Warp Speed monicker!!!!
Your just full of AWESOME! =D>
You should hang that post up in the break room.

It still didn't answer how in 2010, he had 200,000 (*according to his book) and now on ST in 2020, he has 500,000 dyno pulls. These are literally David's words, not mine.
-Bob

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Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Post by Gregory » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:07 am

How quickly a thread can go off the rails! I posted what I thought was interesting how little power was lost
when going from what most would consider the not street-able 2011 EMC rules and the more street-able 2019 REC rules.
Not many comments about those results.
The comment about how many dyno pulls one has made over X number of years just struck me as a figure of speech,
like saying I've done something a thousand times - not really; you are just trying to make a point.
So Mike, I think this thread has run it's course.

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Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Post by bob460 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:57 pm

Wonder how much more will this intake add...........back on track!!

https://scontent.fmel4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/ ... e=5F23344D

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Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:48 pm

bob460 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:57 pm
Wonder how much more will this intake add...........back on track!!

https://scontent.fmel4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/ ... e=5F23344D
Compared to what intake? (That runner looks very short.)
At what RPM?
At what Compression ratio?
Last edited by SchmidtMotorWorks on Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Post by GARY C » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:59 pm

mt-engines wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:11 am
408 Nova wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:54 pm
mt-engines wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:26 pm


How about 1 attempt, no dyno time before the competition. Your first Cam,lifter headers, oil pan etc is your only.
Won't you just do it yourself there chief, since you're calling Dave out?
Im not the only one to call him out..
go to yellowbullet where the avg person actually races or owns a shop.. they call it out too!

Here is some proof i actually do this for a living. I dont have MY SFDATA on hand but im sure thats in the thousands of engines, 5-20 pulls per engine. Here are some chassis dyno tunes for you. just the efilive tunes are in the 1700 tunes range. figure 5-10 avg pulls finish tune. missing is CMR, TUNERPRO,CATS,HPTUNERS,SCT. oh and the Carb or mechanical injected stuff, self contained systems etc

I dont have any more time to screenshot, crop, resize! you guys wouldnt believe it if you came to the track and watched him get his stuff pushed in.. you'd still be hopping on whatever excuse you can think of.

i could find the dyno files for the Dynojet and SF on my backup drive if you need proof but its clearly a waste of time.. I have no problem proving I didnt adulter the data by making fancy colorful graphs.

People come to me to go fast.. Not because I spend my time making colorful graphs.
I Travelled 5 states during the covid lockdown for private testing. How many have you? This isnt a hobby to many of these guys that spot the BS and point it out! Its the nutswingers on here that just wont stop! Many of us are fed up, so much bad advice is being given, worthless information too.

Ron from R&R performance has the busiest Dyno in the country, he does 400+ engines a year, i think he is just over 10,000 on his 902... ask him how feasible DV dyno claims are.
I may be mistaken but are you comparing the time spent to optimize all aspects of a single engine vs the time it takes to test a 1.5 rocker ratio vs a 1.6 rocker?

Does Ron work 8 hours a day or 16 hours a day, 5 days a week or 7?

There are a lot of variables that change what can be done and how long it takes to do it.

If you alone are doing the testing it would be much harder to gather data than if you have 2 or 3 shops in a general area running test simultaneously, not to mention if the engines are not set up for testing to begin with... Things like a belt drive, a water pump that is not mounted to the engine and a modified intake like a modern day spider would go a log way into speeding up cam testing persay.

I am not sure what could be achieved in 50 years of dedicated R&D testing but it is probably more than most could wrap their brains around.
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Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:18 pm

GARY C wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:59 pm

I may be mistaken but are you comparing the time spent to optimize all aspects of a single engine vs the time it takes to test a 1.5 rocker ratio vs a 1.6 rocker?
I'm curious, how much time would you budget for that test? (including record keeping and update of test plan, clean-up the cell etc.) Checking lash cold, hot, before and after pulls.
At the pace and level of care a professional, not the fastest it can be done.
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Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Post by GARY C » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:27 pm

SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:18 pm
GARY C wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:59 pm

I may be mistaken but are you comparing the time spent to optimize all aspects of a single engine vs the time it takes to test a 1.5 rocker ratio vs a 1.6 rocker?
I'm curious, how much time would you budget for that test? (including record keeping and update of test plan, clean-up the cell etc.) Checking lash cold, hot, before and after pulls.
At the pace and level of care a professional, not the fastest it can be done.
Thats not what I do for a living, you should call DV and discus that with him considering that is the kind of testing he has done for 50 years. You may be surprised what data he could share.

Personally I was surprised that he still tests it to this day considering the data he already has from previous years of testing.
Please Note!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!

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Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:45 pm

GARY C wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:27 pm
SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:18 pm
GARY C wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:59 pm

I may be mistaken but are you comparing the time spent to optimize all aspects of a single engine vs the time it takes to test a 1.5 rocker ratio vs a 1.6 rocker?
I'm curious, how much time would you budget for that test? (including record keeping and update of test plan, clean-up the cell etc.) Checking lash cold, hot, before and after pulls.
At the pace and level of care a professional, not the fastest it can be done.
Thats not what I do for a living, you should call DV and discus that with him considering that is the kind of testing he has done for 50 years. You may be surprised what data he could share.

Personally I was surprised that he still tests it to this day considering the data he already has from previous years of testing.
When I have worked in environments where people do it for a living, I would put it at 2-3 hours for an average team.
Some meticulous guys would be over 4 hours.
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Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Post by GARY C » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:13 pm

SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:45 pm
GARY C wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:27 pm
SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:18 pm


I'm curious, how much time would you budget for that test? (including record keeping and update of test plan, clean-up the cell etc.) Checking lash cold, hot, before and after pulls.
At the pace and level of care a professional, not the fastest it can be done.
Thats not what I do for a living, you should call DV and discus that with him considering that is the kind of testing he has done for 50 years. You may be surprised what data he could share.

Personally I was surprised that he still tests it to this day considering the data he already has from previous years of testing.
When I have worked in environments where people do it for a living, I would put it at 2-3 hours for an average team.
Some meticulous guys would be over 4 hours.
If I hired someone to do what I do for a living I would have to factor in several hours more per job than what it takes me, so does that mean it needs to take longer or cost more to do the same job?

I have done this job most of my life and as simple as it is I have been through a few employees that can't even do it regardless of time given...

One thing I learned in my 20 years of studying history is that most everything that someone said couldn't be done has been done and today is far beyond what others said would never be done.
Please Note!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!

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Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Post by swampbuggy » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:14 pm

Gregory, i thought as well that the rule/s change/s would have taken "more" Torque/Horsepower out of the engine. Mark H. :-k

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Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Post by bob460 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:17 pm

SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:48 pm
bob460 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:57 pm
Wonder how much more will this intake add...........back on track!!

https://scontent.fmel4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/ ... e=5F23344D
Compared to what intake? (That runner looks very short.)
At what RPM?
At what Compression ratio?
Compared to a single sb2 intake.

Will find out more details when done.......but designer said looking to make 1100hp

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Re: SAM's SB2 At The EMC And The REC

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:09 pm

bob460 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:17 pm

Compared to a single sb2 intake.

Will find out more details when done.......but designer said looking to make 1100hp
What RPM target?

Vs something like this?
Image
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