We are currently running on the new domain and server: www.Speed-Talk.com

IMPORTANT: Update your bookmarks to https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/
(Right-click the URL and select "Bookmark this link")

60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

Steve K
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:10 pm
Location: Regina Sk

60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by Steve K » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:54 pm

350 sbc. RV type cam, dont know specs. It wont start till I give it almost 60 deg timing. It will start but kicks back and runs like crap. Confirmed TDC on #1, set valves, no vacuum leaks, has Petronix ign, confirmed its hooked up correctly, mechanical advance works, cam is installed dot to dot. Once started, if I try to back off the timing it will stall. Engine has low power, never really ran right, was rebuilt years ago, maybe has 8000 mikes on it. Any ideas? I'm baffled on this one. Has dual plane instake, 4 bbl Holley, nothing special.
Thanks
Steve
79 Cmaro, 427 sbc, Tunnel Ram Dual Quad with Eddy carbs, AFR 210 Race Ready heads, 263-272 @.50 Comp solid roller cam, 4.10's and a faceplated Tremec TKO 600.
65 Beaumont 406 tunnel ram faceplated TKO600

Lizardracing
Pro
Pro
Posts: 298
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:38 am
Location:

Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by Lizardracing » Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:02 pm

Your damper is spun on the crank hub, the outter ring has spun on the hub, or your using a different year timing cover and the TDC doesn't work.

Verify TDC using a piston stop and remark the the TDC on the damper after confirming it's not faulty.

PackardV8
Guru
Guru
Posts: 6142
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:03 pm
Location:

Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by PackardV8 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:08 pm

Steve K wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:54 pm
. It wont start till I give it almost 60 deg timing. It will start but kicks back and runs like crap.
I do not think it means what you think it means.
FWIW, I've never seen an engine which would start with 60 degrees initial timing. I have seen a starter broken off the block when a guy got a distributor installed that far off.
Confirmed TDC on #1,
When you say #1 TDC confirmed, was it done with a piston stop and read out on the front damper/timing tab?
Jack Vines
Studebaker-Packard V8 Limited
Obsolete Engineering

Steve K
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:10 pm
Location: Regina Sk

Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by Steve K » Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:09 pm

Lizardracing wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:02 pm
Your damper is spun on the crank hub, the outter ring has spun on the hub, or your using a different year timing cover and the TDC doesn't work.

Verify TDC using a piston stop and remark the the TDC on the damper after confirming it's not faulty.
Ya, thought of that. Not sure how this thing was put together. The thing with it though is it starts and runs like it has way too much timing. I should be able to get it running somewhat decent by finding a happy spot but but it's all or nothing.
79 Cmaro, 427 sbc, Tunnel Ram Dual Quad with Eddy carbs, AFR 210 Race Ready heads, 263-272 @.50 Comp solid roller cam, 4.10's and a faceplated Tremec TKO 600.
65 Beaumont 406 tunnel ram faceplated TKO600

Steve K
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:10 pm
Location: Regina Sk

Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by Steve K » Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:11 pm

PackardV8 wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:08 pm
Steve K wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:54 pm
. It wont start till I give it almost 60 deg timing. It will start but kicks back and runs like crap.
I do not think it means what you think it means.
FWIW, I've never seen an engine which would start with 60 degrees initial timing. I have seen a starter broken off the block when a guy got a distributor installed that far off.
Confirmed TDC on #1,
When you say #1 TDC confirmed, was it done with a piston stop and read out on the front damper/timing tab?
no piston stop, just thumb over # one spark plug hole. I figure a couple more starts that the starter is trash
79 Cmaro, 427 sbc, Tunnel Ram Dual Quad with Eddy carbs, AFR 210 Race Ready heads, 263-272 @.50 Comp solid roller cam, 4.10's and a faceplated Tremec TKO 600.
65 Beaumont 406 tunnel ram faceplated TKO600

bill jones
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2588
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 6:38 pm
Location: salt lake city, ut
Contact:

Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by bill jones » Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:45 pm

---I had a Pertronix where the key power went to a ballast resistor----and the red wire from the Pertronix was getting less than full 12 volts of battery voltage

---it had bad spark scatter from idle to about 2400 rpm

---called Pertronix and chatted with Marvin---who was decent and explained that the Pertronix red wire needs a full 12volts of battery power

---we changed that quick & easy---and that fixed the problem
------------------------------------------
---personally I would open up a nice large viewing hole into a spare distributor cap and check the rotor index---look in there under the rotor at where the reluctor is when it fires.

---if the ignition is triggered by any magnetic trigger---and the trigger wires get reversed you have issues there that affect timing and rotor index

Steve K
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:10 pm
Location: Regina Sk

Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by Steve K » Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:59 pm

bill jones wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:45 pm
---I had a Pertronix where the key power went to a ballast resistor----and the red wire from the Pertronix was getting less than full 12 volts of battery voltage

---it had bad spark scatter from idle to about 2400 rpm

---called Pertronix and chatted with Marvin---who was decent and explained that the Pertronix red wire needs a full 12volts of battery power

---we changed that quick & easy---and that fixed the problem
------------------------------------------
---personally I would open up a nice large viewing hole into a spare distributor cap and check the rotor index---look in there under the rotor at where the reluctor is when it fires.

---if the ignition is triggered by any magnetic trigger---and the trigger wires get reversed you have issues there that affect timing and rotor index
Thought of that too and we have 12 volts at the distributor. I think I'm leaning towards the balancer/timing tab but I should still be able to get this thing running with less timing, thats what has me perplexed.
79 Cmaro, 427 sbc, Tunnel Ram Dual Quad with Eddy carbs, AFR 210 Race Ready heads, 263-272 @.50 Comp solid roller cam, 4.10's and a faceplated Tremec TKO 600.
65 Beaumont 406 tunnel ram faceplated TKO600

rebelrouser
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 1139
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:25 pm
Location:

Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by rebelrouser » Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:07 pm

If the Valve cover is easy to get off, rotate until TDC on the balancer aligns, and then look at the rockers during the overlap, not when compression comes up but the next revolution, exhaust valve should be closing, intake should be opening, approximately the same amount, if not something is out of time. If the rockers are off rotate engine until they are equal, then make a paint mark on your balancer and use that to check your timing. piston should be at the top of course.
I have seen do it yourselfers that align the wrong mark on the cheap 4 degree advance and retard timing sets and they do what you describe. The rocker alignment catches that pretty quick, if the balancer and piston are correct.

1972ho
Expert
Expert
Posts: 811
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:52 am
Location:

Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by 1972ho » Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:56 pm

That happen to me about a year ago and it was my timing light when I bought the new one problem went away.

User avatar
FC-Pilot
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 569
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:23 pm
Location: Peoria, AZ
Contact:

Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by FC-Pilot » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:05 pm

Have had issues with plug wires crossed causing issues like this. Back as a teenager I did the timing set goof up.

I might do a compression test to see if all the pressures are close to start off with. Start simple.

Paul
"It's a fine line between clever and stupid." David St. Hubbins

Steve.k
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 1370
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 10:41 am
Location:

Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by Steve.k » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:09 pm

Sometimes the roll pin in distributor gear will shear off and spin on shaft. However the ends still in gear and looks normal. Try a different distributor or check that pin.

Steve K
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:10 pm
Location: Regina Sk

Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by Steve K » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:28 pm

1972ho wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:56 pm
That happen to me about a year ago and it was my timing light when I bought the new one problem went away.
Thought about that too. Bought a new one and same deal... :(
79 Cmaro, 427 sbc, Tunnel Ram Dual Quad with Eddy carbs, AFR 210 Race Ready heads, 263-272 @.50 Comp solid roller cam, 4.10's and a faceplated Tremec TKO 600.
65 Beaumont 406 tunnel ram faceplated TKO600

SchmidtMotorWorks
Vendor
Posts: 10278
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:30 am
Location:

Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:32 pm

Firing order wrong direction on cap?
Helping to Deliver the Promise of Flying Cars

Steve K
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:10 pm
Location: Regina Sk

Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by Steve K » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:32 pm

Steve.k wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:09 pm
Sometimes the roll pin in distributor gear will shear off and spin on shaft. However the ends still in gear and looks normal. Try a different distributor or check that pin.
Had the distributor out to check the gear and the pin appeared ok as did the gear but have to admit I didn't look closely at the pin but it was through and through from what I remember
79 Cmaro, 427 sbc, Tunnel Ram Dual Quad with Eddy carbs, AFR 210 Race Ready heads, 263-272 @.50 Comp solid roller cam, 4.10's and a faceplated Tremec TKO 600.
65 Beaumont 406 tunnel ram faceplated TKO600

Steve K
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:10 pm
Location: Regina Sk

Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by Steve K » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:33 pm

SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:32 pm
Firing order wrong direction on cap?
Yup, verified that too and is ok
79 Cmaro, 427 sbc, Tunnel Ram Dual Quad with Eddy carbs, AFR 210 Race Ready heads, 263-272 @.50 Comp solid roller cam, 4.10's and a faceplated Tremec TKO 600.
65 Beaumont 406 tunnel ram faceplated TKO600

Post Reply