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60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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dannobee
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Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by dannobee » Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:00 pm

Was the balancer or front cover changed, by chance? Some small blocks have the timing tag under the water pump, at high noon, 12 o'clock, and on the correct balancer, the keyway is way off from the mark. On a "regular" small block, the keyway is pretty much lined up with the TDC timing mark and the timing mark is closer to the 2 o'clock position when looking from the front.

Steve.k
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Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by Steve.k » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:01 pm

Steve K wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:32 pm
Steve.k wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:09 pm
Sometimes the roll pin in distributor gear will shear off and spin on shaft. However the ends still in gear and looks normal. Try a different distributor or check that pin.
Had the distributor out to check the gear and the pin appeared ok as did the gear but have to admit I didn't look closely at the pin but it was through and through from what I remember
Steve I’ve done the exact same. But the pin appears fine as it shears of both ends and the stay in gear. Just take it out and check with punch if other side move your good. Have you got timing retard on there also?

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Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by superpursuit » Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:13 pm

Steve K wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:54 pm
350 sbc. RV type cam, dont know specs. It wont start till I give it almost 60 deg timing. It will start but kicks back and runs like crap. Confirmed TDC on #1, set valves, no vacuum leaks, has Petronix ign, confirmed its hooked up correctly, mechanical advance works, cam is installed dot to dot. Once started, if I try to back off the timing it will stall. Engine has low power, never really ran right, was rebuilt years ago, maybe has 8000 mikes on it. Any ideas? I'm baffled on this one. Has dual plane instake, 4 bbl Holley, nothing special.
Thanks
Steve
With these symptoms it sounds like your cam timing is off. I would pull no.1 plug & visually check for TDC. You can use a screw driver on top of the piston to get a little more accuracy. Check your balancer timing when you do this to be sure. Then make sure the no. 1 rockers are rocking when you move the crank back & forward around TDC.
If that's ok then check your spark strength. If it is weak then you may have a bad earth to the engine.

I hope this helps.
Allan.

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Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by Geoff2 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:53 am

Yup, cam timing. Assuming ign timing marks are correct.

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Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by Steve K » Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:05 am

Thanks guys for all the responses. I'm sending this mill to my engine builder to sort out as I haven't got the time to mess with it. I'll let everyone know once it's sorted out. It's a weird one.
79 Cmaro, 427 sbc, Tunnel Ram Dual Quad with Eddy carbs, AFR 210 Race Ready heads, 263-272 @.50 Comp solid roller cam, 4.10's and a faceplated Tremec TKO 600.
65 Beaumont 406 tunnel ram faceplated TKO600

cjperformance
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Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by cjperformance » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:19 pm

Fresh fuel??
Wiped exhaust lobe/s.?
EGR stuck open?
Craig.

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Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by Steve.k » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:59 pm

Ever get this sorted out?

Steve K
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Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by Steve K » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:23 pm

They swapped the cam out and apparently it runs good, I haven't driven it so can't verify. Is it possible the cam was ground incorrectly?
79 Cmaro, 427 sbc, Tunnel Ram Dual Quad with Eddy carbs, AFR 210 Race Ready heads, 263-272 @.50 Comp solid roller cam, 4.10's and a faceplated Tremec TKO 600.
65 Beaumont 406 tunnel ram faceplated TKO600

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Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by Geoff2 » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:40 am

Yes.

1972ho
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Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by 1972ho » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:09 am

Did he say how swapping the cam out changed the ignition timing buy 30 degrees.

Steve.k
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Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by Steve.k » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:03 pm

Steve K wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:23 pm
They swapped the cam out and apparently it runs good, I haven't driven it so can't verify. Is it possible the cam was ground incorrectly?
Well if im understanding you correctly you had 8000 miles where it ran fine? So must’ve wiped lobe or timing chain jumped?

Steve K
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Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by Steve K » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:53 pm

I don't think this engine ever ran the way a 350 should have. I spent some time tuning the carb a couple summers ago, eventually got it to squak the tires off a dead stop but it always felt flat. But it did run and was driveable. All of a sudden it quit and wouldn't restart. The only way I could get it to start and run was to advance the timing to somewhere near 60 degs. I haven't had a chance to talk the the owner or the engine shop other than to here it runs better with a new cam. I'll update once I get more info.
79 Cmaro, 427 sbc, Tunnel Ram Dual Quad with Eddy carbs, AFR 210 Race Ready heads, 263-272 @.50 Comp solid roller cam, 4.10's and a faceplated Tremec TKO 600.
65 Beaumont 406 tunnel ram faceplated TKO600

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Re: 60 DEG TIMING TO GET ENGINE TO START

Post by GLHS60 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:28 am

rebelrouser gave good advice on how to check dot to dot cam timing.

I eyeball overlap at lifters or rockers and the piston should be at TDC.

It's running mate should be at TDC for initial ignition timing.

Much more civilized than the finger in the spark plug hole!

UD Harold posted on the valve overlap method many years ago.

He could check for + - cam timing with with a feeler gauge!

I set valves by this method, instead of the EI- EI O method.

It reminds me of Old McDonald nursery rhyme!!

Thanks
Randy




rebelrouser wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:07 pm
If the Valve cover is easy to get off, rotate until TDC on the balancer aligns, and then look at the rockers during the overlap, not when compression comes up but the next revolution, exhaust valve should be closing, intake should be opening, approximately the same amount, if not something is out of time. If the rockers are off rotate engine until they are equal, then make a paint mark on your balancer and use that to check your timing. piston should be at the top of course.
I have seen do it yourselfers that align the wrong mark on the cheap 4 degree advance and retard timing sets and they do what you describe. The rocker alignment catches that pretty quick, if the balancer and piston are correct.
Sherwood Park
Alberta,Canada
There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.

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