We are currently running on the new domain and server: www.Speed-Talk.com

IMPORTANT: Update your bookmarks to https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/
(Right-click the URL and select "Bookmark this link")

Heads for 400 w/Mike Jones HR cam

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

steve316
Expert
Expert
Posts: 622
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: St.Joseph,mo.

Re: Heads for 400 w/Mike Jones HR cam

Post by steve316 » Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:38 pm

On budget valves there are a lot difference in quality between brands; best to find out what alloy they are made out of. Any one piece 21-4n set would stand up to a HR spring. With afr 210 you get good components, not sure what atk is using.

SpeierRacingHeads
Vendor
Posts: 427
Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 1:28 pm
Location:

Re: Heads for 400 w/Mike Jones HR cam

Post by SpeierRacingHeads » Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:12 pm

77cruiser wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:07 pm
The only thing I don't like about Profilers is the raise D port ex. shelf headers are a difficult fit.
The ATK as-cast had a standard exhaust port. But looks like they went Dart.

All of my CNC heads in the ProFiler casting are stock location.
Speier Racing Heads
Chad Speier
785-623-0963

SpeierRacingHeads
Vendor
Posts: 427
Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 1:28 pm
Location:

Re: Heads for 400 w/Mike Jones HR cam

Post by SpeierRacingHeads » Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:13 pm

65dragster wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:08 pm
Monza355, yes, I had AFR195’s and sold them because s I read a lot about the Pro-Filers and the great results from Chad or Eric’s work. I talked with Chad yesterday and he said Pro-Filer cut back their WD’s and he couldn’t get them easily any longer. He said the ATK versions was all I needed with the smallish cam. I called ATK and they said they quit using Pro-Filer and their heads are all Dart’s now. After talking to the ATK guy, I wasn’t convinced that their posted flow numbers were for the Dart’s. So that’s why I am back at trying to decide on heads again. D’oh!
How much power are you trying to make?
Speier Racing Heads
Chad Speier
785-623-0963

1980RS
Member
Member
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:03 am
Location:

Re: Heads for 400 w/Mike Jones HR cam

Post by 1980RS » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:26 pm

Here's my 406 setup
.030 flat top pistons
Scat crank GM 5.7 rods
Stock 906 Vortec heads with spring pocket and guides cut for seals and clearance
1165P Elgin hyd cam
GM Dual plane Vortec intake (no mods)
1" open spacer
750-850 Mighty Demon
1 5/8" Headers
10" Jeg's XHD 4100 stall
Turbo 400 4.10 gear
30" tire


Car runs consistent 11.50's to 60's @113 to 115 mph and pulls 6200 very easy.

New changes soon, mild ported 062 Vortecs, 8" converter and Hooker Super Comp Headers.

65dragster
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:55 pm
Location: Clipper Mills CA

Re: Heads for 400 w/Mike Jones HR cam

Post by 65dragster » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:56 pm

Chad, in a perfect world I would like to be at 500/500 HP and torque. Mike thinks the compression ratio would need to be higher and use a bit more lift and duration to get there current recommendation is .576 lift with 1.6 rockers and 233 duration) with the 195 cc heads. My budget taps out at $2000 for heads, ideally less. Thanks!

SpeierRacingHeads
Vendor
Posts: 427
Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 1:28 pm
Location:

Re: Heads for 400 w/Mike Jones HR cam

Post by SpeierRacingHeads » Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:51 pm

65dragster wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:56 pm
Chad, in a perfect world I would like to be at 500/500 HP and torque. Mike thinks the compression ratio would need to be higher and use a bit more lift and duration to get there current recommendation is .576 lift with 1.6 rockers and 233 duration) with the 195 cc heads. My budget taps out at $2000 for heads, ideally less. Thanks!
My 379 in the IROC has a 231/233 w/.570 lift (roller) with my 205cc heads. It peaked at 6300.

I have a really nice import CNC head, made 560 on a 383, 10.5-1 pump gas engine.
Speier Racing Heads
Chad Speier
785-623-0963

68rs406
Pro
Pro
Posts: 288
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:09 am
Location: NW Washington

Re: Heads for 400 w/Mike Jones HR cam

Post by 68rs406 » Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:12 pm

Just another (former) 406 guy, and I would agree with larger runner heads. And whatever Mike recommends for a cam. I would definitely sort out the heads prior to cam selection.

My last pretty mild street 406; (from memory...)

-Stock 2 bolt block with main studs, 4.155" bore, cast steel eagle crank and I beam rods (would not go eagle again). Forged SRP Flat tops.

-Stock pro action/pro topline 220 cc runner, 64cc chamber heads. (Good heads, but when I freshened the motor my buddy that freshened the heads told me the valve job was pretty bad).

-Basic Isky solid roller 250 @ .050", can't recall lift but it was in the low 500's. Manley spring I forget the spec, but matched the cam. Comp rollers.

-Holley strip dominator (not my first choice but I had it), Demon 750 DP

In my pretty much all stock 68 rs Camaro. Steel Rallys, drag radials. Car was 3350 with me. TH350, 4000 stall, 4.10 gears. It ran low 11's 11.40 to high 11.40 at (I believe) 117, 1.50-1.60 60' (IIRC) like clockwork, it was a great little motor and drove on the street like a dream.

Lessons learned;

-Check your solid rollers...lol. I had one fail out of the blue with maybe 5-6k miles if that. Lash never had wavered, but the lifter wheel failed and took the cam along for the ride. Not a huge fan of Comp solid rollers, I'm running Crower HPPO now. Much nicer piece.

- Watch the compression. I was at 11:1 and it was not thrilled with all pump gas, that was the main downside of this motor. I could have run 10.5:1 or 10:1 and probably never noticed the power loss, and it would have been happier on any pump gas.

-Even with studded mains, the first Eagle crank must have been moving around a lot, the cap to block surface showed lots of "walking" marks. It was also a stock block making probably 500 horse, but it shouldn't have been as bad as it was. Could have been the machine work too I suppose, but I assembled and checked it and everything seemed good. When I disassembled the bottom end to freshen it, the main bearings and crank were toast, as were the cam bearings. May have partially been from eating a lifter, not sure.

-Eagle cast steel cranks are crap in my opinion, but they are also really cheap. I used another when I freshened the motor to keep it the same and what a mistake, the main journals varied by .001-.002, and had some taper. I had to get X bearings and mix and match to get the right clearances. Way too much messing with a cheap crappy crank but I was trying to get it back together to make a race.

-Pro action, or whatever other name they ran under, were pretty good heads. Mine seemed to work well. Other than the crappy valve job as mentioned above. The 220cc runner was by no means soft in the lower RPMs.

I freshened that motor, and then eventually just traded it to my buddy as a partial trade on my current motor, an SB2.2. He put it in his wife's 67 Camaro and they have used and abused the engine for 5-6 years now, or more, never a single issue. I told him about it's sins, but he didn't care.

So long story (not so short), it doesn't take much at all to make 500 street able horsepower with a 400. :D
Sean

65dragster
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:55 pm
Location: Clipper Mills CA

Re: Heads for 400 w/Mike Jones HR cam

Post by 65dragster » Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:46 pm

Sean, you provided some really helpful information, so I'll take some time to digest it all. I agree that mid 11's are pretty doable without breaking the bank witnessed by a couple examples that have been shared. Getting to 11-teens or high 10's seems to be a big step up. I always wondered how reliable a solid roller could be for a mostly street driven car. It sucks that you had a rough time with Eagle stuff. Were the 220 heads you ran cast iron or aluminum?

steve cowan
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 1097
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:22 am
Location: brisbane AUSTRALIA

Re: Heads for 400 w/Mike Jones HR cam

Post by steve cowan » Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:00 pm

65dragster wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:21 pm
I welcome ideas on this combination before I re-buy new heads. A little bit of information might help. 1972 Nova with TCI Super Street Fighter T-350 and 3500 stall converter. Has 3.08 gears, but we have another 10-bolt with good axles, full spool, and 4.10 gears. Has drag radials (255/60/15), but will run full slicks on track days. 85% street use and 15% bracket drags (5-10 track days/year. Engine is World Products Motown 4.125 bore block, loaded with forged rotating assembly (3.75 stroke & 6”rods). I had AFR 195’s, but sold them after reading about Pro-Filer heads and/or what Chad and Eric offer. I’ve settled on a Jones HR cam .360 lobe 233 duration 112 LSA, but I haven’t ordered it yet. I have a Vic Jr ported to a Fel Pro 1206 or a new Holley 300-25 or an Edelbrock Air Gap and several nice 750’s and an 850. I have 1.50 and 1.60 rocker arms. With a 64 cc chamber and -16cc dish, it should be 9.7:1. So my question is what heads to buy. AFR 195 or 210? Pro-Filer 195 or 210? Something else? I would like to run low 11’s or on a hero pass, a 10.99. I know that’s asking a lot, but I am willing to work the combination to get the results. I prefer decent street manners and the car has power brakes. Okay, please offer insight and guidance.
for your cubes
approx. for peak hp with cylinder runner sizes
6000rpm-2.20in2-200cc
6500rpm-2.38in2-213cc
7000rpm-2.56in2-229cc
7500rpm-2.75in2-245cc
in my opinion using a smaller cc head and porting to the correct CSA for the application instead of bolting on a cast bigger runner is a better option but I understand about budget.
last year I ran a 383 combo
10.5:1
cast iron 165cc head 1.94''-1.5'' valves
ported by me to 178cc avg CSA 1.95''
air gap and vic jnr as cast
950hp carb
comp SFT 235-242 @0.050''
106 LSA 500'' lift
1.6 -1.5 rockers
calculations put peak around 5500rpm
best shift point was 6000rpm and 6300 at finish line
ran quicker and faster with 5600 converter,4.1 rear gear and the radial tyre
1.58 in the 60ft
7.43 @ 91mph
11.71 @ 115mph
at 3650 pounds shows 430 hp
not fast by any stretch but it was fun to drive on the street,and ran very consistent.
steve c

65dragster
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:55 pm
Location: Clipper Mills CA

Re: Heads for 400 w/Mike Jones HR cam

Post by 65dragster » Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:52 pm

Steve C. Thanks for the good information. For me, it really helps to see the rpm-port size information, your real world combo, and what it ran at the drags. I definitely want something that has explosive throttle response. Drag strip performance is great, but having very crisp throttle response that’s fun to drive is where it’s at. I don’t have skills to port heads, so I am trying to find something that works well out of the box or with minor “massaging“, but within my budget. Thanks again for comprehensive information.

steve cowan
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 1097
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:22 am
Location: brisbane AUSTRALIA

Re: Heads for 400 w/Mike Jones HR cam

Post by steve cowan » Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:43 pm

A good valve job is critical in my opinion, most heads I have seen as cast have turbulence on the intake and exhaust ports, this is very obvious when i flow over 28" depression, mostly in the short side radius and pushrod pinch to small in CSA. the first person i would talk to is Randy331,he probably has a stockpile of good heads he might sell a pair to you?? :D
steve c

pdq67
Guru
Guru
Posts: 9556
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:05 pm
Location:

Re: Heads for 400 w/Mike Jones HR cam

Post by pdq67 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:38 am

You know my '67 350SS/RS car was like 3050 or so pounds new if not mistaken??

How far off am I??

pdq67

65dragster
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:55 pm
Location: Clipper Mills CA

Re: Heads for 400 w/Mike Jones HR cam

Post by 65dragster » Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:45 am

1972 Nova shows 3166 + 168 (for T350) + 200 (driver) = 3534 lbs. Add a roll cage and it’s 3700+. I’ll lose 200+ on track days without factory seats, a fiberglass hood, and fewer cheeseburgers. For a street driven car, 3500 is pretty close.

econo racer
Expert
Expert
Posts: 614
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:44 pm
Location:

Re: Heads for 400 w/Mike Jones HR cam

Post by econo racer » Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:38 am

I would try to stick with the cam grinder or Speirs. But after spending 8K on a crappy deal you might have to use a cheap set of heads. Aint that a crappy deal #-o

F-BIRD'88
Guru
Guru
Posts: 7604
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:56 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Heads for 400 w/Mike Jones HR cam

Post by F-BIRD'88 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:49 am

My 72 Nova 6 cylinder w powerglide was 3150.
Your sbc Camaro is heavier. The listed weights are base "shipping weights"
My '88 sbc/ th350 F bird was 3350. Your 67 sbc 4sp Camaro will be close to this.

Post Reply