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Question about 100% water injection

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Roy
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Question about 100% water injection

Post by Roy »

Just got done putting a home brew 3 stage water injection kit on my cummins daily driver to see what kind of fuel mileage improvement can be had. Running into an issue with snow performance nozzles rusting and plugging. I am going to try reverse osmosis filtered water to see if by chance it is simply a high level of iron in the water supply.. but I'm doubting it. I have no traces of rust anywhere except on the magnetic stainless steel nozzles (from summit, listed as water/meth nozzles). Would anyone happen to have some input? I'm thinking I need to find a rust inhibitor additive like they have in the "boost juice" but I have a strong feeling they're going to tell me its a proprietary blend.. so, HELP please and thank you! Nozzles were brand new, about 250 miles on the setup.
Truckedup
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

Post by Truckedup »

How does water injection improve fuel mileage on a Diesel?. I do know it's used on spark ignition engines to control detonation...
Motorcycle land speed racing... wearing animal hides and clinging to vibrating oily machines propelled by fire
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

Post by HiPer Express »

Truckedup wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:00 pm How does water injection improve fuel mileage on a Diesel?. I do know it's used on spark ignition engines to control detonation...
No, it is only used to keep EGT down.
Roy
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

Post by Roy »

quote=Truckedup post_id=871609 time=1595786443 user_id=19972]
How does water injection improve fuel mileage on a Diesel?. I do know it's used on spark ignition engines to control detonation...
[/quote]

Water turns to steam which in turn builds more pressure.. at least in theory. It got me curious, so I am trying it out. Definitely has helped EGTs on long hills but I unfortunately have not had it hooked to the trailer yet to give you a solid answer on how much.
Kevin Johnson
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

Post by Kevin Johnson »

First, determine whether the nozzles are themselves magnetized. Previous discussions have indicated that essentially any machining operation has the potential to magnetize the item being machined if it is susceptible. Stainless steel can be more or less magnetic depending on the alloy.

Try using paperclips which do not attract each other and see if the nozzles attract them.

Magnetic degaussing units used to be more common when magnetic tapes were in common use. Perhaps machine shop owners can describe units that they use.
Roy
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

Post by Roy »

Kevin Johnson wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:53 pm First, determine whether the nozzles are themselves magnetized. Previous discussions have indicated that essentially any machining operation has the potential to magnetize the item being machined if it is susceptible. Stainless steel can be more or less magnetic depending on the alloy.

Try using paperclips which do not attract each other and see if the nozzles attract them.

Magnetic degaussing units used to be more common when magnetic tapes were in common use. Perhaps machine shop owners can describe units that they use.
Cannot say thats why they're magnetic.. the inner workings of the nozzle including the spring are all magnetic as well. Even the brass mounted SS 100 micron screen is magnetic. Theyre all soaking in vinegar/water atm to try and clean up.. after 4 hours I think that idea was a waste of time.
Roy
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

Post by Roy »

I take that back, screen is not.
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

Post by Kevin Johnson »

Start by degaussing the parts.

If you do a google search there are many suggestions. Don't heat the parts.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Make sure that the tools that you used to install/remove the parts are not magnetized as well.
Roy
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

Post by Roy »

Kevin Johnson wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:23 pm Start by degaussing the parts.

If you do a google search there are many suggestions. Don't heat the parts.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Make sure that the tools that you used to install/remove the parts are not magnetized as well.
So, two observations, firstly, vinegar and water will take the rust off, but not in the 4 hours I gave it, cleaned the rest off with q-tips and a razor blade to scribe the passages on the inner part of the nozzle. Secondly, the nozzle which I found to be magnetic became lightly magnetic after I checked it on the magnetic parts tray.. i checked the other 2 nozzles with the same paperclip, no part of them was magnetic. Only the one I apparently magnetized attracted the #4 machine screw washer. I then tested the other 2 nozzles on the parts tray, same results- magnetic stainless. The inside of the anodized aluminum nozzle holders (snow 90 degree) had rust stains as well, but only on the side the nozzle was in. The other side as well as the brass compression fitting (used all DOT airline and brass compression fittings for the system. Built a manifold out of 6061 aluminum.. water solenoids are all brass, rated for water usage, pump is an agricultural type water pump. Point is, i made it a point to avoid rust. All water going into my plastic RV portable water tank goes through a disposable camco rv water filter..

My only 2 ideas next
1 Mount the reverse osmosis filter that just showed up (filters down to .0001 micron) and see if the rust is by chance just a high iron ppm in the supply...doubtful since I saw no traces before the nozzle

2 Buy nozzles that are of better quality. And here I thought snow made good nozzles.. they sell water injection kits with these nozzles to do what I did!

3 Bang head on truck
Roy
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

Post by Roy »

Still would very much like to hear if anyone has put for example water soluble cutting oil in with their water/meth system.
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

Post by Kevin Johnson »

A strong suggestion is to buy several gallons of distilled water and thoroughly flush your system.

I understand that you just purchased a filtration system.

Try running ONLY distilled water first and see if the corrosion reappears.
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

Post by rebelrouser »

I would read this article https://www.dieselarmy.com/engine-tech/ ... injection/
Quote from the article
"The most common issue that we at Diesel Army have seen is rust. As the water is being injected into the intake, it is being sprayed into a fine mist. Companies like Banks Power have spent hundreds of hours perfecting the shape of the cone and volume of water being injected to reduce this issue, but this mist does go everywhere and there is a potential for uncoated parts to rust. There are some additives that can be added to the water methanol mix that can help prevent this.
For example, Banks PowerBlend includes about 0.5% corrosion inhibiting oil."
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

Post by Kevin Johnson »

rebelrouser wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:16 pm I would read this article https://www.dieselarmy.com/engine-tech/ ... injection/
Quote from the article
"The most common issue that we at Diesel Army have seen is rust. As the water is being injected into the intake, it is being sprayed into a fine mist. Companies like Banks Power have spent hundreds of hours perfecting the shape of the cone and volume of water being injected to reduce this issue, but this mist does go everywhere and there is a potential for uncoated parts to rust. There are some additives that can be added to the water methanol mix that can help prevent this.
For example, Banks PowerBlend includes about 0.5% corrosion inhibiting oil."
From the same article: [My emphasis]
Where Do I get Methanol From?

There are a few options here. Straight water can be used (distilled water), also a lot of people run windshield washer fluid. The issues here are inconsistency in mixture percentages. A really broad average is that typically washer fluids run about 30% methanol. To get a consistent product that you can count on with the right ratios, the best bet is to always purchase from manufacturers like Banks that sell a premixed fluid at 49% methanol, 51% water (Banks calls it PowerBlend), that can be easily shipped via UPS (another advantage of it being lower than a 50% methanol mix).
Our company supplied surfactants to suspend the additives in micro-emulsions. To solve a specific problem with rusting in the nozzles (or deposition of rust in/on the nozzles) you need to be methodical.
Roy
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

Post by Roy »

Kevin, first off thank you for trying to help me out, I do mean that.

I emptied the system last night and refilled with distilled water from wally world, flushed the lines and topped off.

I read that article before posting this whole topic actually, the .5% oil additive is what gave me the idea to ask here if anyone knew what additive it was in particular.

Thus far I do like the system. Under aggressive driving the water stages turning on give a noticeable kick in the pants. Whether it is simply the turbo spooling faster or because of it working as theorized i don't know. When all is said and done I think I will visit the chassis dyno and find out.
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Re: Question about 100% water injection

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