Entry level EFI tuning

[S10LS2]

Engine Check lights can be done with MS as well.

Not for STATE emissions programs

[Belgian1979]

Engine Check lights can be done with MS as well.

Not for STATE emissions programs

Maybe explain how they test that. Over here they only put a stick in your exhaust and measure CO, HC and other emissions to verify it adheres to emissions regulations. What is there that an aftermarket ECU cannot do. The check engine light only says that there is something wrong, like sensors not working, EGO not working or engine misfiring. MS does that, not sure where you got that it wasn't doing that?

[englertracing]

In the US they plug into the diagnostic port and fool around

[dannobee]

They plug it into the OBD2 port and if the OBD2 monitors have all been run and passed and there are no current trouble codes, it gets a pass.

[rebelrouser]

Would an aftermarket EFI and the factory PCM/trans controller be able to work together, or would I need a stand alone trans controller? It’s a 4L80 if that matters

I don't know what the trans uses as input to change gears and such but can imagine that it uses some sort of signal that represents rpm and/or load. You can setup a analog output signal that would vary depending on the factor that needs to be monitored. You can even setup a frequency signal in the same way and you can even send out a can signal if you can get the protocols to work together (that last one is a bit too complex for me I'm afraid).

For example, I use a ford fuel pump controler that uses frequency output of my ecu to regulate the speed of the fuel pump. All it needed was the correct output from the ECU.

The PCM uses input shaft speed, output shaft speed, throttle position, Map sensor for load, and several other variables to shift the transmission. The actual shifting is done with simple on off solenoids. The complicated deal is that the line pressure of the transmission, is computer controlled as well. And the transmission has adapt capabilities, the PCM monitors the speed of the shifts and ramps line pressure up or down to make sure the shifts are perfect over the life of the transmission. One other trick the OEM uses to save warranty costs is that the ignition timing is retarded right before the transmission shift to save load on the transmission. When you are programing a stock vehicle turning off that feature, makes a HUGE difference in how the vehicle performs. You can buy stand alone shifters to operate the 4L80E, but I think the line pressure is fixed at a higher level than the OEM, and of course the adapt feature is not used either.

The adapt feature is good for diagnostics, as the transmission wears and the computer ramps up line to compensate, you can with a scan tool look at how much it has adjusted, and figure out if problems are about to happen. When a battery goes dead and a car sits, the adapts are lost and many cars will not idle, run, or shift right until the adapts are relearned.

[travis]

When a battery goes dead and a car sits, the adapts are lost and many cars will not idle, run, or shift right until the adapts are relearned.

How long does it normally take for the adapts to be relearned?

So it sounds like that for long term durability, the factory PCM may be the better way to go considering what I use this for.
It will never be “fast”, but it certainly needs more grunt in the towing department. Looks like I’ve got some different options to consider.

I do really like the idea of a self learning EFI setup like some of the Holley Sniper systems. I think it would add a lot of flexibility

[Bill Chase]

Self learning features will get you maybe 85% of the way there. For perfect all weather starts, max cruise economy, and excellent drivability you will still have to tune it. And all of the self tuning or learning systems still have to have the timing map tuned. As well as base idle set, the idle air control configured properly. And they do not create a timing map by themselves, that part has to be programmed. Line by line by line.

Systems like Holley have base configurations that will get you close, but do not fall into the trap of thinking " I just plug it in, start the car and it learns enough to tune itself perfect for my car" it does not work like that. Ask most tuners and they will tell you to make a relatively safe tune takes minutes, and wot tuning is straightforward, but if you want it tuned to start, idle, run, and compensate like a new car would? Well.. that takes a little time and skill, tou still have to find what the engine wants, and adjust the parameters correctly or the ecu will not give it what it wants. The oe systems are actually really good now days, and for mild performance builds should be used if you want the car to retain oe like drivability in all weather, and all conditions. Dont fall into the belief that Detroit did not know what they were doing.. the time spent creating a solid daily driver takes a tremendous amount of time and effort.

[Bill Chase]

The factory ecu is very capable, but you will not get max results with a 99.95 mail order tune from the guy on ebay. Find someone close to you that specializes in your vehicle, and knows what works, and what doesn't. And talk to his previous customers, ask questions. For your mild build the original ecu should be able to accommodate your needs, and still retain all communication with the cars dash, gauges, body control module, abs brakes, and traction control if your year, make, and model has that option. And accept that there will be limits. If you want the car to remain drivable like it is, you cannot go crazy on compression, or camshaft. You have to look at the entire package, and be very realistic with yourself about what you want it to do well. Almost everything you do is going to be a compromise. In your case of a heavy Suburban.. get a 454, or 502, with stock programming, gear it right and enjoy.. think long and hard about buying a complete wrecked truck, comparable year. And swap the larger engine into your vehicle, keep your ac, cruise, traction control, and ability to take it anywhere to be serviced. Just my $.02, your mileage may vary.

[dfarr67]

Do yourself a big favor- GM ecu's can be vey flexible and one of the best is the 0411 or close cousins. Your style truck has been converted many times and there is not much to it. This is a 99-01 ish ecu that came is many vehicles is one of the most hacked and opens your tune resource to guys who do LS with HP tuner and EFI Live. If you are putting together an engine- you can also change to a 24X crank reluctor. Go look at gearheadefi, gmt400, ls1 forum.

[rebelrouser]

When a battery goes dead and a car sits, the adapts are lost and many cars will not idle, run, or shift right until the adapts are relearned.

How long does it normally take for the adapts to be relearned?

So it sounds like that for long term durability, the factory PCM may be the better way to go considering what I use this for.
It will never be “fast”, but it certainly needs more grunt in the towing department. Looks like I’ve got some different options to consider.

I do really like the idea of a self learning EFI setup like some of the Holley Sniper systems. I think it would add a lot of flexibility

That depends on how the vehicle is driven, some shop manuals give instructions to technicians on how to drive to speed up the process. While Chrysler took a lot of grief on the problems with the first electronic shift transmission, it was ahead of it's time, because the computer actually adjusted the fluid pressure to each clutch pack individually. It is called Clutch Volume Index, on the scan tool.

[Belgian1979]

Would an aftermarket EFI and the factory PCM/trans controller be able to work together, or would I need a stand alone trans controller? It’s a 4L80 if that matters

I don't know what the trans uses as input to change gears and such but can imagine that it uses some sort of signal that represents rpm and/or load. You can setup a analog output signal that would vary depending on the factor that needs to be monitored. You can even setup a frequency signal in the same way and you can even send out a can signal if you can get the protocols to work together (that last one is a bit too complex for me I'm afraid).

For example, I use a ford fuel pump controler that uses frequency output of my ecu to regulate the speed of the fuel pump. All it needed was the correct output from the ECU.

The PCM uses input shaft speed, output shaft speed, throttle position, Map sensor for load, and several other variables to shift the transmission. The actual shifting is done with simple on off solenoids. The complicated deal is that the line pressure of the transmission, is computer controlled as well. And the transmission has adapt capabilities, the PCM monitors the speed of the shifts and ramps line pressure up or down to make sure the shifts are perfect over the life of the transmission. One other trick the OEM uses to save warranty costs is that the ignition timing is retarded right before the transmission shift to save load on the transmission. When you are programing a stock vehicle turning off that feature, makes a HUGE difference in how the vehicle performs. You can buy stand alone shifters to operate the 4L80E, but I think the line pressure is fixed at a higher level than the OEM, and of course the adapt feature is not used either.

The adapt feature is good for diagnostics, as the transmission wears and the computer ramps up line to compensate, you can with a scan tool look at how much it has adjusted, and figure out if problems are about to happen. When a battery goes dead and a car sits, the adapts are lost and many cars will not idle, run, or shift right until the adapts are relearned.

Thanks. You need indeed a way to provide the TCU the information it needs. It may not be impossible but will require a specific approach.

[Belgian1979]

In the US they plug into the diagnostic port and fool around

Really, I wouldn't appreciate it one bit if they would do that. I have a vagcom here to get into my dd's system and I can tell you that it is very easy to mess things up....

[Orr89rocz]

You can just buy a wideband o2 and get hptuners and tune that system. I hear the factory Spider injection system will limit how much fuel and possibly power in general is possible. Some of the performance truck forums and hptuner forums can help you as well as diy gm efi sites out there.

[rebelrouser]

I will post this on EFI, the factory systems are very good. They provide good emissions, and power for modern vehicles. The only reason I would tune on a stock system if their were modifications to the engine, like a big overlap camshaft, which the stock maps are not capable of handling. The other issue is when you want to make more HP, you burn more fuel, I don't think there is anyway around that. So you can only push so much fuel through an injector, and I know guys how raise fuel pressure to get more flow, but the issue with that is as you increase the fuel pressure it increases the amperage that the driver has to provide to lift the pintle in the injector. So if you get bigger injectors and or ramp up the fuel pressure, the drivers in the ECM may not handle it and turn off or burn up, something else to think about. Modern EFI is a very good system, but it is complicated and hard to modify and do a good job at it. So I make the statement again, if you want EFI on a performance vehicle, buy an after market system. If you want to drive the vehicle everyday and pass state emissions leave it alone, buy a hot rod to have fun with.
I have a 2010 challenger for my everyday driver, got nice wheels, stripes, fiberglass hood, get a lot of compliments on it. It has a V-6, get 30 MPG, and passing gear kicks out at 85 MPH, I would never dream of messing with the EFI system, it just runs too good. I got a 69 Cuda pro charged, 4 speed, 410 with Fitech EFI, I tuned it and it is almost too wild to drive on the street, very happy with it. Very easy to tune with a hand held programmer, which also works as a scan tool and data logger. The whole injection system cost less than my snap-on scan tool alone.