alcohol bbc dreams

[prairiehotrodder]

i bought an Enderle bug catcher on an edelbrock tunnel ram and a mechanical 80A fuel pump. I'm drawn to the whole idea of building an alcohol motor and these parts are my first purchase. I'm not in a hurry and these parts may sit for awhile before i do anything with them. I also have a nice standard bore short deck 454 4 bolt block. What kind of power potential do i have here ? I'm thinking a 489 stroker with 14.5 CR, .800 lift roller cam and maybe some AFR 335 CNC heads. Is 1000 hp a stretch ? In the last few years i've given up my street car / street racing focus and started to really enjoy racing at the track and the community of people and friends there. I really like the fact that when i switched from street car to race car i could quit making compromises. I'm also really wanting to try new things and grow my knowledge and level of experience. I just don't want to make a bunch of expensive mistakes.

[prairiehotrodder]

from what i'm reading online, it seems that once i have a motor put together and horsepower plan, I will need to have my system flowed to suit that plan ? Am i right ?

[FC-Pilot]

Having your system flowed is a great way to have a baseline established while having your equipment checked for proper function.

Alright here is my PDQ story for the day. When we built our first funny car we hit the track with a setup that “should have” worked. We had a super trick pill holder and all our other equipment was all set up. Well we were new to all this and I was the first one to drive our car (at the old age of 18). Well, we go to the track to start doing licensing passes. Our stack injected bbc (that was not near what you are talking about) made decent power and had no problem turning over the 36” fuel tires in the burnout. I would feather it to stay off of limiter. But when wide open it would lay over. While making a pass, it would leave okay, but lay over badly after about 300 feet. I would lift off and it would start picking up. Mid run it was making its best power at less than half throttle (give or take). We tried pills in every direction. Over the space of two months we tried almost everything tuneup wise. We then took the car to Gene Adams. He helped us pull the system off and set it up in his bench. He asked us what the “stupid” pill holder was. We replied it was a cool holder that made it easy to swap pills. He spins up he pump and all of a sudden all his gauges peg and fluid starts squirting everywhere. We both look at each other wondering what happened. He spins it up again slowly ramping up the rpm, and the same thing happens. He quickly grabs some wrenches and disconnects our “cool pill holder” and using many expletives tells us to trash it. He puts on an old Heilbronn holder and it worked fine. We would have never known, but the internal check valve was opening up so far it was then limiting flow on the other side of the unit, closing off all flow and forcing all fuel “to the engine”.

Point is, we spent a lot of money and time hitting the track where one time having the system flowed would have found our issue and saved us money. Another time we got a brand new set of stacks and parts from kinsler. We did not have the complete system flowed and ended up melting down the engine due to the fact that the spool was for the opposite rotation than what our system was. Another oops. That one was more expensive.

I have ran and tuned multiple hat setups on tunnel rams. Once they are close they are easy to tune and maintain as long as you establish a good maintenance program. Keep your system clean, dry (of water) and lubed and you will be problem free for a long time.

Your fuel cell will be something you think about. A properly designed, sized and placed cell will help provide consistency and ease in starting. Just more to think about.

Paul

[rebelrouser]

The few alcohol injectors I have messed with, my experience is that if it is a used unit, get the pump flowed, and give the company all the info on your combination so the nozzles can be sized correctly. Use a cylinder leak down tester to set the barrel valve. And after you get done running it, learn to flush and oil the system until the next race. Doing those three things fixes the majority of the problems with alcohol mechanical injection.

[Rick!]

1000hp might be a stretch in a NA 489 BBC. If you spin it hard, it could get there.
At 572, it would be easy to make 1000hp while keeping rpm below 7500.
I don't know if your 454 allows a 4.5" stroke so you're limited to 4.25 or so.
Sonic checking the cylinders may show you can get a .100 overbore and this will pump it up to a little over 500 cubes.
You're still going to have to spin it kinda hard to make 1000hp.
The nice side effect of alky is that they idle pretty tame if the fueling is proper but you already know that by listening to alky tube racks idling by going up to the staging lanes.

[F-BIRD'88]

Time to go Supercharged.

[prairiehotrodder]

seems best to take small steps rather than jumping in way over my head all at once.

[FC-Pilot]

No need to worry or be intimidated. Just plan it out well and put it together. It will be great. If you go to someone to have your system flowed, ask a thousand questions about tuning as well as how they like to see you maintain it between races. As said earlier, a clean system and great maintenance eliminates almost all issues people have. Plan your build and make it happen. You have been doing that these last few years and doing it well. Just keep doing it.

Paul

[Dave Koehler]

If you bought the system from someone with a car you personally know and their cubic inch is close to yours you have a good chance of being able to party on. If it sits around long enough you will likely need to change out every o-ring. Good idea to do that regardless.

IF you bought if off of ebay or racing junk it is a whole 'nother ball game.
Too many of the "ran xxx sec when parked" are not such a great buy. Wrong everything or worn out.
Some of these deals were obviously put together as a "system" from parts laying around or picked up at swap meets.
I have had many such systems through here where it wound up costing as much too replace and fix things as it would cost for a new system.

FWIW for 1000 hp and up I use the nitro style barrel valve and a Bird hat.
Actually, I use the nitro valve on everything simply for the superior flow path and ease of mounting.

As FC pilot noted the tank is important.
Must be up front. Forget the plastics They are designed for gas and carbs. Spend the money and make one out of aluminum to fit in the space available.
-12 minimum female outlet size. Larger is ok. You can get fittings to down size to 12.
- 8 female returns at the top, back side of tanks so returning fuel sprays across above the fuel level, not down. Again, use fittings to downsize to -6
-10 vent, -8 minimum.

[prairiehotrodder]

If you bought the system from someone with a car you personally know and their cubic inch is close to yours you have a good chance of being able to party on. If it sits around long enough you will likely need to change out every o-ring. Good idea to do that regardless.

IF you bought if off of ebay or racing junk it is a whole 'nother ball game.
Too many of the "ran xxx sec when parked" are not such a great buy. Wrong everything or worn out.
Some of these deals were obviously put together as a "system" from parts laying around or picked up at swap meets.
I have had many such systems through here where it wound up costing as much too replace and fix things as it would cost for a new system.

FWIW for 1000 hp and up I use the nitro style barrel valve and a Bird hat.
Actually, I use the nitro valve on everything simply for the superior flow path and ease of mounting.

As FC pilot noted the tank is important.
Must be up front. Forget the plastics They are designed for gas and carbs. Spend the money and make one out of aluminum to fit in the space available.
-12 minimum female outlet size. Larger is ok. You can get fittings to down size to 12.
- 8 female returns at the top, back side of tanks so returning fuel sprays across above the fuel level, not down. Again, use fittings to downsize to -6
-10 vent, -8 minimum.

I did buy it as a used system off of kijiji. I wouldn't even consider just bolting it on a motor. I will definitely get it checked out and flowed by a pro when the time comes. I'm sure it has been sitting for awhile. Maybe it is a worn out. I don't know. I haven't seen it yet. Its getting shipped to me. The price was right. I paid $1200 US dollars for the bug catcher with a 80A pump, on a victor ram, plumbed with lines to each port runner with a barrel valve and a FAST methanol O2 sensor kit.
Brian

[69427]

i bought an Enderle bug catcher on an edelbrock tunnel ram and a mechanical 80A fuel pump. I'm drawn to the whole idea of building an alcohol motor and these parts are my first purchase. I'm not in a hurry and these parts may sit for awhile before i do anything with them. I also have a nice standard bore short deck 454 4 bolt block. What kind of power potential do i have here ? I'm thinking a 489 stroker with 14.5 CR, .800 lift roller cam and maybe some AFR 335 CNC heads. Is 1000 hp a stretch ? In the last few years i've given up my street car / street racing focus and started to really enjoy racing at the track and the community of people and friends there. I really like the fact that when i switched from street car to race car i could quit making compromises. I'm also really wanting to try new things and grow my knowledge and level of experience. I just don't want to make a bunch of expensive mistakes.

I hope you keep us updated on your build as it goes.

We have a MFI methanol 427 BBC(4.320x3.76) that has our 3200# camaro going low 6's with a best of 5.96@115.

I love the MFI it is super easy too use once you get the jest of it. Good clean fuel is a priority, and i am partial to VP M1 with the M2 top lube. Seriously I leave this fuel in it for weeks and never have any problems associated with methanol. I believe it's the M2 lube that keeps everything good to go.

If you can get some data logger channels you can monitor a few things to help you tune. A fuel pressure sensor at the distribution block can get you an idea if your nozzle jet size is correct. I personally like the idea of a higher pressure (>100) at the nozzle to atomize the fuel. We also run a RP O2 in each collector and run a AFR of about 5.0. I also have 8 EGT's but they are more like pilot lights for the individual cylinders and will give you an idea of where you are at with timing.

One item that has made life easier is the "Click Fast barrel valve adjuster ". It's nice to give it a couple of flats for idle AFR without fumbling around with wrenches on a idling motor.

Good luck with your build and don,t be afraid of the MFI. It is stupid simple.

Oh and keep the running temperature of the motor high 170-180. I have found alky likes heat in the chamber and not milking the oil is a plus.

https://www.google.com/search?q=click+f ... e&ie=UTF-8

[prairiehotrodder]

so if i'm learning correctly, its probably a good idea to have a much smaller than normal cooling system (small rad) and also to run a thermostat ? I'm used to gas engines where i'm constantly doing everything to keep them cool. I also read that if the barrel valve is adjusted to about 25% leakage it will run a tad leaner at idle and thus stay warmer and not milk the oil ? I've seen about 3 websites that seem to specialize in alcohol tuning :

alkydigger
good vibrations
koehler injection

The first 2 seem reputeable but no so sure about the third one

Sorry for that dig Dave.

When the time comes i definitely want to send my stuff to you for the once over.
Brian

[Dave Koehler]

You can start with your coolant system as is. Then see what you think.
A lot of door car folks that are forced to make laps wind up with a much smaller radiator and move it to one side to give room for their custom tank.
Generally works out pretty neat.

Don't fall in love with any leak down numbers. It is just a number.
Your tuning may require more leak than the "I am paranoid about alky in my oil" crowd.

After you get some laps you may find you can reduce or eliminate the cooling system as well as the rear gas tank and associated lines, etc.

PS,out of the 3 possibilities mentioned I am the only one that has an actual in house flow bench. Just sayin.

Is Les Davenport still doing systems in CA? That might save on shipping and hassle to the states and back.

[prairiehotrodder]

You can start with your coolant system as is. Then see what you think.
A lot of door car folks that are forced to make laps wind up with a much smaller radiator and move it to one side to give room for their custom tank.
Generally works out pretty neat.

Don't fall in love with any leak down numbers. It is just a number.
Your tuning may require more leak than the "I am paranoid about alky in my oil" crowd.

After you get some laps you may find you can reduce or eliminate the cooling system as well as the rear gas tank and associated lines, etc.

PS,out of the 3 possibilities mentioned I am the only one that has an actual in house flow bench. Just sayin.

Is Les Davenport still doing systems in CA? That might save on shipping and hassle to the states and back.

Les Davenport seems to be pretty much a legend in Canada. I went to his shop in Calgary when i was a kid.

[prairiehotrodder]

here is my new treasures. I also got a brand new FAST methanol O2 sensor meter with the deal.

IMG_0404.JPG

IMG_0406.JPG

The tunnel ram looks just about like new. Like its only been bolted on one engine judging by the marks around the bolt holes. The barrel valve feels nice and smooth but i see the lever has one ear broken off of it.