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351W Cam in 289
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:00 pm
by AllicanaFORD
First post. Whenever I google a complex question I always seem to end up here at Speed-Talk. Good reading and input from so many here about everything. Thanks.
I am doing this project as a cheap Hot Rodding exercise not a shopping spree so please, no "use this" or "call X for a custom cam." I intend to be out nothing more than the price of gaskets etc, no spring swaps.
I am being given a cam/lifter set for a 351W to put in my 289. The cam is base and was used for most every car/truck/bronco/van with a 351W from the 70s to the 90's.
Advertised Intake Duration:283
Advertised Exhaust Duration:304
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift:206
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift:221
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.445 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.453 in.
Lobe Separation (degrees):115
Overlap is 63.5*, if I figured correctly
INT. -14 BTC 40 ABC 206 18 BTC 85 ABC 283 .278 .445 117 1.6 HYD
EXH. 47 BBC -6 ATC 221 82 BBC 42 ATC 304 .283 .453 113 1.6 HYD
These valve events are still Greek to me. I know what they are but havent quite grasped the why or how they relate. Like why some cams need a high CR.
A few concerns; This was used in mostly low compression smog engines. My 289 was advertised as 10:1 CR, most say thats an optimistic number so lets assume its less but at least 9.5:1.
The intake dur. is kinda short, right? This will raise my dynamic compression and potential det? Will this be offset by the wide LSA and longer exhaust dur?
If you were doing this combo would you install it straight up or +/- 4*.
Happy Labor Day! I hope you all don't have to do a thing you don't want to do!
Re: 351W Cam in 289
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:08 pm
by CamKing
It's the seat duration you need to look at. With the short stroke of a 289, you could run 11:1+ with that cam. Detonation won't be an issue.
It won't start pulling until 4,000rpm, but should pull to 7,000rpm
Re: 351W Cam in 289
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:43 pm
by AllicanaFORD
Thanks. ..and WOW. Not at all what I wanted to learn. I do like to drive this car wound up tight but I dunno.
Thinking this was a base cam for many applications it should have a smooth idle and low end torque for trucks and family cars. Can you dumb down how you get this conclusion from those numbers?
Re: 351W Cam in 289
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:12 pm
by CamKing
The 283/304 seat duration is going to effect the RPM range the cam will run in, in a given engine.
The smaller the engine, the higher the RPM range, for a given seat duration.
You're taking a cam that makes peak power at about 5,500 in a 351ci engine, and putting it in an engine that's 82% as big, so the power band will move up inversely to 6,700rpm.
Re: 351W Cam in 289
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:15 pm
by CamKing
as a reference, for 6,000rpm, in a 289, you would only need a seat duration around 260/268
Re: 351W Cam in 289
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:07 pm
by travis
That is a stock ford 351w cam used in a number of applications, most commonly found in later FI 351w’s and in crown vics and such. The numbers are misleading as those are SAE numbers. Off the top of my head the .006” numbers are 256 intake duration, 270 exhaust. It’s actually not a terrible grind for a factory cam...I’ve used it in a bunch of different 351w’s over the years. It’s an old profile that was also used in 351c’s, so it’s been around a while.
Re: 351W Cam in 289
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:48 pm
by BigBro74
For the OP- in case nobody let you know- it will fit in the 289 and it will work fine -
——-the firing order is different. ——
If it was me I would install it on a 107 or 108 intake centerline (7 or 8 advance) as measured with a degree wheel.
By base you means “stock” or “factory” so—
Is the cam new or used?
Re: 351W Cam in 289
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:09 pm
by AllicanaFORD
BigBro74 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:48 pm
For the OP- in case nobody let you know- it will fit in the 289 and it will work fine -
——-the firing order is different. ——
If it was me I would install it on a 107 or 108 intake centerline (7 or 8 advance) as measured with a degree wheel.
By base you means “stock” or “factory” so—
Is the cam new or used?
Yes, its new. Bought years ago for a basic rebuild but never used and during conversation a friend offered it to me to have so its a free experiment that I think I have to try even if only to prove to not like it. Ive got a vintage aluminum intake Ive been thinking to put on for a while so its a two fer. Plus the cam is small enough the consensus is I wont have to change my springs.
For comparisons sake this '66 289 has a .360/380 lift and 260/244 dur. It pulls the light car OK off idle, some tire spin without even having to dump the clutch, It plays out around 4700 rpm. I was hoping this would give me a moderate bump in power without spending much.
Its original and about 90K miles, I didn't want to push anything very big until an inevitable rebuild is done. Many thousands of miles I hope, although Ive been accused of trying to blow it up every time I drive it:)
Re: 351W Cam in 289
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:26 pm
by AllicanaFORD
.. and so I should Advance the cam timing? How much would be safe or not?
Re: 351W Cam in 289
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:49 am
by My427stang
I would put a degree wheel on it and see what the .006 numbers are for comparison with more modern cams and a better recommendation for octane tolerance along with a good measurement of your chamber size and as close as you can get to static compression numbers
However, although your I can also say that I bet that it ends up pretty similar to the 302 J-code, which was installed at 114 centerline. They pulled a little harder on top than you would expect because of the late cam timing. Your numbers look odd to me because it says 117 ICL/113 ECL but the .050 valve events equate to 117 LSA / 117 ICL (more or less) Which sort of makes sense because as engines became smogged up they retarded the cams for some internal EGR effect and they didn't want any chop at idle at all for grandma's Granada
That being said, I would pick a centerline based on intended use and the numbers you come up with more measuring. If you are putting a stiff gear behind it, a big intake and trying to make it rev, you could do like Ford in the era and go 112-114. If you want more low-mid, advance it up to 8 degrees or so, easy with a 9 position timing set. I do think that it will feel better early, but depends on compression and what you are trying to do with it. I doubt I would ever put it at 117, it just makes things very lazy
Re: 351W Cam in 289
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:54 am
by Walter R. Malik
AllicanaFORD wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:00 pm
First post. Whenever I google a complex question I always seem to end up here at Speed-Talk. Good reading and input from so many here about everything. Thanks.
I am doing this project as a cheap Hot Rodding exercise not a shopping spree so please, no "use this" or "call X for a custom cam." I intend to be out nothing more than the price of gaskets etc, no spring swaps.
I am being given a cam/lifter set for a 351W to put in my 289. The cam is base and was used for most every car/truck/bronco/van with a 351W from the 70s to the 90's.
Advertised Intake Duration:283
Advertised Exhaust Duration:304
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift:206
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift:221
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.445 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.453 in.
Lobe Separation (degrees):115
Overlap is 63.5*, if I figured correctly
INT. -14 BTC 40 ABC 206 18 BTC 85 ABC 283 .278 .445 117 1.6 HYD
EXH. 47 BBC -6 ATC 221 82 BBC 42 ATC 304 .283 .453 113 1.6 HYD
These valve events are still Greek to me. I know what they are but havent quite grasped the why or how they relate. Like why some cams
need a high CR.
A few concerns; This was used in mostly low compression smog engines. My 289 was advertised as 10:1 CR, most say thats an optimistic number so lets assume its less but at least 9.5:1.
The intake dur. is kinda short, right? This will raise my dynamic compression and potential det? Will this be offset by the wide LSA and longer exhaust dur?
If you were doing this combo would you install it straight up or +/- 4*.
Happy Labor Day! I hope you all don't have to do a thing you don't want to do!
Those look like 351W O.E.M. production specs to me.
Slow flanks and long ramps can not compare with most aftermarket offerings.
Re: 351W Cam in 289
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:20 pm
by BigBro74
travis wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:07 pm
That is a stock ford 351w cam used in a number of applications, most commonly found in later FI 351w’s and in crown vics and such. The numbers are misleading as those are SAE numbers. Off the top of my head the .006” numbers are 256 intake duration, 270 exhaust. It’s actually not a terrible grind for a factory cam...I’ve used it in a bunch of different 351w’s over the years. It’s an old profile that was also used in 351c’s, so it’s been around a while.
Travis - where did you install yours at? As in intake centerline? I’ve not done this particular cam in a 289 -
Re: 351W Cam in 289
Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:11 am
by travis
BigBro74 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:20 pm
travis wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:07 pm
That is a stock ford 351w cam used in a number of applications, most commonly found in later FI 351w’s and in crown vics and such. The numbers are misleading as those are SAE numbers. Off the top of my head the .006” numbers are 256 intake duration, 270 exhaust. It’s actually not a terrible grind for a factory cam...I’ve used it in a bunch of different 351w’s over the years. It’s an old profile that was also used in 351c’s, so it’s been around a while.
Travis - where did you install yours at? As in intake centerline? I’ve not done this particular cam in a 289 -
I’ve run them anywhere from 115 ica to 111 ica, typically installing them +4 which is about 111 to 112 ica. On a E7TE head (stock or lightly ported) 351w with under 9.0 compression, any performance difference is negligible. I haven’t tried +6 or +8 yet
Re: 351W Cam in 289
Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:48 pm
by AllicanaFORD
My427stang wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:49 am
I would put a degree wheel on it and see what the .006 numbers are for comparison with more modern cams and a better recommendation for octane tolerance along with a good measurement of your chamber size and as close as you can get to static compression numbers
Thanks, lots of good things to digest. I'm fortunate to be busy working some OT for hopefully a month then it will be back to eating soup and passing the time on house work and hobbies as cheaply as possible.
These engines,
Challenger Specials 
were sold as having a 10:1 CR Flat top pistons that may or may not have valve reliefs, chamber volume is 54-56cc depending on where you read it and so 9.7-9.8:1 is thought to be pretty accurate. rear end is only 3.00 but I have a T5 trans with a fairly low 1st gear in a kinda light Mustang.
travis wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:07 pm
Off the top of my head the .006” numbers are 256 intake duration, 270 exhaust.
Ive not seen these .006 numbers before and not sure how I would compare it to a modern cam. What i see in published specs are that ones with a similar lift to this one have a shorter duration and to compare to a similar duration the lift is about .050+ more.
Keep in mind I'v decided to try this because I shouldn't have to worry about messing with my springs and rocker studs.
Re: 351W Cam in 289
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:14 am
by My427stang
In the end, I don't think you'll see any worthwhile gain from this cam. There just isn't any significant overlap to help cylinder fill.
Even advancing it, will really only gain part throttle response if anything. I do think it will give it a little more in-traffic kind of good behavior if you advance it, it won't do anything significant at WOT as Travis said
Being on a budget is tough, but might be better to save the gasket money for a set of used gears