Stock Eliminator secrets?

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Re: Stock Eliminator secrets?

Post by gmrocket »

1972ho wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:10 pm A lot of some these things are not allowed on a stock eliminator engine no vacuum pumps,no big oil pans only a stock replacement no pan evacuation system.
Stock has allowed aftermarket ,bigger sump pans for years

This pan #30765 from Milodon is allowed on a small block olds stocker..it’s baffled and has extra capacity over a stock pan that they came with.
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Re: Stock Eliminator secrets?

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Walter R. Malik wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:10 pm
gmrocket wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:01 pm
RDY4WAR wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:29 am

That is an extremely valuable resource. Thank you posting it.
you're welcome. there are some really interesting findings in that paper...like how on that small V6 the negative work(higher pumping losses) were on just one side of the engine, while there was positive pumping gains on the other,,,very slight. but on average it was negative pumping losses for the whole crankcase,,,one rear cylinder having the worst loss, front the least loss because its next to a larger open area due to the timing chain area etc.

then the three tests with vent holes of 25mm, 30mm and 35mm,,the bigger the better as it kept dropping the pumping losses as rpm increased
Not allowable with a Stocker but, That is one of the reasons why the largest volume oil pan you can fit will help.
I’m pretty sure it is legal
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Re: Stock Eliminator secrets?

Post by tenxal »

gmrocket wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:47 pmStock has allowed aftermarket ,bigger sump pans for years
That's incorrect.

In some cases, the legal replacement pans have significant sump depth changes from what was really O.E. from the factory while others aren't allowed this. For example, here's the legal oil pan style for most small block Chevies:

Image

And here's the legal SBC oil pan for the '63-'67 Chevy II's:

Image

And here's the FE Ford legal pan:

Image

You can do any internal stuff you want...scrapers, baffles, trays, troughs, round-abouts, redirects, coatings, screens, etc. Believe me, when you actually test this stuff on the dyno and back it up at the track, all is not as it seems.

These bigger pans have been added to the accepted replacement list due to racers lobbying NHRA Technical for them. I have my own thoughts on the whole subject of Stock Eliminator oil pans but that's neither here nor there. The important thing to know is that we can't just hang any pan we want to under these things.

Rules are funny, that way..... :wink:

P.S. Ran in a Stock/Super Stock race yesterday, qualified #2 out of 57 cars. Heading to the track in a few minutes for another one. :D
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Re: Stock Eliminator secrets?

Post by jed »

Have a good day and hope you come out on top.
I wish I were there!!!!
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Re: Stock Eliminator secrets?

Post by jed »

Oh one more thing if you ever need someone to help push the car to the starting line I'm availed.
LOL
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Re: Stock Eliminator secrets?

Post by gmrocket »

tenxal wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:52 am
gmrocket wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:47 pmStock has allowed aftermarket ,bigger sump pans for years
That's incorrect.

In some cases, the legal replacement pans have significant sump depth changes from what was really O.E. from the factory while others aren't allowed this. For example, here's the legal oil pan style for most small block Chevies:

Image

And here's the legal SBC oil pan for the '63-'67 Chevy II's:

Image

And here's the FE Ford legal pan:

Image

You can do any internal stuff you want...scrapers, baffles, trays, troughs, round-abouts, redirects, coatings, screens, etc. Believe me, when you actually test this stuff on the dyno and back it up at the track, all is not as it seems.

These bigger pans have been added to the accepted replacement list due to racers lobbying NHRA Technical for them. I have my own thoughts on the whole subject of Stock Eliminator oil pans but that's neither here nor there. The important thing to know is that we can't just hang any pan we want to under these things.

Rules are funny, that way..... :wink:

P.S. Ran in a Stock/Super Stock race yesterday, qualified #2 out of 57 cars. Heading to the track in a few minutes for another one. :D
So you say I’m incorrect, then post proof I’m correct.

Bigger, deeper sumps like I said.. just like the ones you post and the olds pan # number I did
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Re: Stock Eliminator secrets?

Post by tenxal »

gmrocket wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:28 amSo you say I’m incorrect, then post proof I’m correct. Bigger, deeper sumps like I said.. just like the ones you post and the olds pan # number I did
I think you misunderstood my post.

My post was to show that not all engines in Stock are allowed to use big pans.

Sorry if my post didn't clarify this completely.
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Re: Stock Eliminator secrets?

Post by Jeff Lee »

tenxal wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:46 pm In a traditional internal oil pump/wet sump application:

-Is it advantageous to pull a slight vacuum in the pan, if possible?
-Are there any detriments to doing this?
-Is some positive pressure in the crankcase ever a good thing?
Keeping it legal, I can attest that you can create vacuum in a Stocker. I had a low speed / high speed in my D/S car. You must have a completely sealed engine, not even a dip-stick. Much dyno testing of various PCV valves; not all are created equal! I wish that
http://mewagner.com/?p=444
was available at the time! I would get 6"-8” vacuum, good for double digit HP.
So yes, there is an advantage to getting vacuum, no advantage to creating pressure.
Congrats on your #2 qualifier position you posted!

On oil pans, my AMC pan not only had scraper but troughs and baffles. Never did experiment with a windage tray. There’s power in oil pans but there’s also other issues to consider like drain back and keeping the pickup properly submerged. And that FE oil pan shown is total BS that it is allowed. You can’t run “truck” rear ends, so you shouldn’t be allowed things like truck / bus oil pans.
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Re: Stock Eliminator secrets?

Post by SupStk »

Jeff Lee wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:32 pm And that FE oil pan shown is total BS that it is allowed. You can’t run “truck” rear ends, so you shouldn’t be allowed things like truck / bus oil pans.


I think the Chevy II pan is even more BS.

Not only is it a bunch deeper than any stock SBC pan, but the sump is in the back compared to the original front location.
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Re: Stock Eliminator secrets?

Post by ctk30 »

I have an lt1 stock eliminator cam shaft from bullet and the lobes look rectangular, thought it was something more usable for a vortec block build when I bought it
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Re: Stock Eliminator secrets?

Post by EDC »

ctk30 wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:12 pm I have an lt1 stock eliminator cam shaft from bullet and the lobes look rectangular, thought it was something more usable for a vortec block build when I bought it
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Re: Stock Eliminator secrets?

Post by gmrocket »

tenxal wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:17 pm
gmrocket wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:28 amSo you say I’m incorrect, then post proof I’m correct. Bigger, deeper sumps like I said.. just like the ones you post and the olds pan # number I did
I think you misunderstood my post.

My post was to show that not all engines in Stock are allowed to use big pans.

Sorry if my post didn't clarify this completely.
And I didn’t say “all”

For the record, which pans do you consider not bigger, deeper or totally different than the factory pan they came with?

That Chevy II pan sure isn’t like the factory double sump piece of junk where your oil gets trapped in the small rear sump on launch...that pan is way better than the stock GM one.

But I guess the Chevy guys need more of a break and an even more trick pan 😉
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Re: Stock Eliminator secrets?

Post by JohnsnsFord2@aol.com »

Jeff Lee wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:03 am
What's the purpose of the holes in the bottom of the cyls? Something to do with crankcase venting?

its a 4-Stroke Engine above the Piston tops ,
but it acts as a 2-Stroke engine below the Piston ,
example : 300cid 4-Stroke .. is probably moving around 600cid Air in the Crankcase area for the same RPM ,
so holes allow reducing or balancing crankcase windage between all the Cylinders ... free up some TQ and HP
And what’s really cool about those holes venting....it’s not even a Stocker secret idea! Thank GM engineering! I first saw those on the (then) new LS1. In fact I was asking around about those vents while everybody else was talking about the cathedral cylinder ports. Keep threatening to do that to my AMC block but there’s an internal oil line in the block casting that scares me.

While all of us hear about those dang cheaters, or the perception of cheating, you never hear about the absolute dummies that have no real reason to be in the class because there’s just some things that some don’t get! I knew a local guy that built a 340 Dart for Stock and he was convinced the rule book said “stock” in all parameters concerning the camshaft! I mean, he bought a TRW type replacement 340 cam and used that! And when he ran low 14’s in a 10 second class, he went around barking at everybody that would listen about everybody else was a cheater and he was the only legit guy! Obviously he gave up but I hear he’s still bitter.

And we’ve all got stories of watching the full crew of four pushing the Stocker in the lanes and all four are grunting pretty heavily. Wonder why the car won’t ET or MPH?

I have a buddy with one of the fastest under index Stockers. Would you believe an auto trans done right ($$$) can knock off 3+ tenths? Another buddy ran a V/SA car and changing the rear wheel / tire comb to a smaller / lighter set, then gearing it down to RPM the same picked up over two-tenths? Under powered cars like the last two examples are more effected with these kinds of improvements.

I race a clutch car. The amount of ET reductions in a proper clutch set-up and tune is mind boggling.

I’m trying to get another buddy to change his Stocker torque convertor. I am definitely not a TC expert but what I do know is that old “stall it to maximum torque RPM” went out the window some twenty (30?) years ago! He has a 5200 stall convertor on an engine that is shifted at around 6200 and traps at around 6700. I’m about to bet him the cost of a new convertor that he needs a 6000 stall unit (no less than 5800). Plus I recommend to him an ATI to his...well, I shouldn’t mention the brand, but let’s say it’s not the “go to” convertor company in Stock or Super Stock!

There’s so much ET to be found without even opening the hood. Suspension (front and rear), transmissions with different ratios, rear ratios, clutches, convertors, etc. Spend the time in those areas and keep the hood shut will be the best advise I can give.

Stopped by the chassis shop today as I’m back-halving the AMX from D/S to SS/G. Man, I am excited to debut this car! And there’s so much more you can do to a Super Stock engine. Absolutely loved Stock but there’s new territory to mark!
there's not much difference in stock and SS short-blocks these days....
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Re: Stock Eliminator secrets?

Post by JohnsnsFord2@aol.com »

tenxal wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:52 am
gmrocket wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:47 pmStock has allowed aftermarket ,bigger sump pans for years
That's incorrect.

In some cases, the legal replacement pans have significant sump depth changes from what was really O.E. from the factory while others aren't allowed this. For example, here's the legal oil pan style for most small block Chevies:

Image

And here's the legal SBC oil pan for the '63-'67 Chevy II's:

Image

And here's the FE Ford legal pan:

Image

You can do any internal stuff you want...scrapers, baffles, trays, troughs, round-abouts, redirects, coatings, screens, etc. Believe me, when you actually test this stuff on the dyno and back it up at the track, all is not as it seems.

These bigger pans have been added to the accepted replacement list due to racers lobbying NHRA Technical for them. I have my own thoughts on the whole subject of Stock Eliminator oil pans but that's neither here nor there. The important thing to know is that we can't just hang any pan we want to under these things.

Rules are funny, that way..... :wink:

P.S. Ran in a Stock/Super Stock race yesterday, qualified #2 out of 57 cars. Heading to the track in a few minutes for another one. :D
that fe pan isn't any deeper or better than a factory pan .... Just a few baffles
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Re: Stock Eliminator secrets?

Post by GARY C »

tenxal wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:17 pm
gmrocket wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:28 amSo you say I’m incorrect, then post proof I’m correct. Bigger, deeper sumps like I said.. just like the ones you post and the olds pan # number I did
I think you misunderstood my post.

My post was to show that not all engines in Stock are allowed to use big pans.

Sorry if my post didn't clarify this completely.
You got to love it when people ask for proof in response to a proof filled post.
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THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!
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