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NA Engine With No Damper?

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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maxracesoftware
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Re: NA Engine With No Damper?

Post by maxracesoftware »

long ago, when NHRA first came out with Damper specs + requirements
Solid Aluminum Hub/Dampers became popular mostly because they were cheap alternative to beat new Rules
can't really call it a Damper :)

i ran a very small diameter red anodized Moroso Solid Aluminum Hub/Damper on my 3.250" Stroke C/ED 316cid Engine
trick John Lingenfelter C/ED steel pan ,5.67 rear gears , crossed 10000+ RPM every pass
still have the Pan + the Solid Aluminum Hub ... and a much larger heavier ATI Balancer was worth more HP on this engine in Dyno tests

i saw a few BigBlock Chevy engine from various Engine Builders thru the years
that used these Moroso Solid Hubs have Crank snouts break right-off ... mostly were main bearing failures + cracked cranks .

Craig's Record setting A/ND and B/ND engines use just a solid Hub
reason : no way to run a real Damper because of all the front-driven drives Magneto,etc
Craig wants to run a ATI Damper , but can't fit it in

One time , on my SF-901 with the old 1000 Lbs Brake/Absorber
we made 4 or 5 Dyno tests ...everything was great ... then next Dyno test ,
the 2 bolts that hold the Strain-Gauge started backing out from engine vibrations + HP was down too
i told Craig , the Crank might have just cracked :(
i'd go back after each Pull and retighten those 2 bolts ... made 4 or 5 more pulls , bolts kept loosening + HP was down a little
Craig decided to run it in Houston ... 2nd or 3rd Run it killed all the main bearings :evil:

Craig brought me the Crank after he had it magnufluxed ... said it didn't look cracked ??
i stood the Crank on it end ... hit the top counterweights with a Hammer ... very dull thud ... no ringing :evil:
flip it over on its snout ... hit the other counterweights with a Hammer ... again , very dull thud ... no ringing :evil:

i went get my stock GM OEM steel 3.480" crank i ran in my 355cid 725HP @9000 RPM 10000 RPM thru MPH lights
i hit counterweights with Hammer ... beautifull long ringing tone :)

i told Craig , next time try hitting counterweight to verify crank is cracked + the magnafluxing
Last edited by maxracesoftware on Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: NA Engine With No Damper?

Post by maxracesoftware »

4vpc wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:21 pm
maxracesoftware wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:25 pm
lefty o wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:00 pm the right dampener will actually gain you power.
i did a bunch of different Damper tests for Troy Coughlin's (Jegs) NHRA ProStocker in 1994
ATI , Rattler, Fluid Damper, etc.

and then i personally did a bunch on various engines i had in my Shop -vs- no Damper

you will always loose TQ and HP if you run without a Damper
ATI Damper always beat out the other Dampers i tested thru the years !

i put all that Data info into equation form in PipeMax v4.50
so you can instantly see how much TQ and HP a Damper or without a Damper can give you

Edit : i forgot about Innovators West Dampers ... these Dampers were neck-and-neck HP results as ATI Damper in Dyno tests on NHRA SuperStockers
Did you ever test an I4? If so what was the outcome?
Did you ever test an I4? If so what was the outcome?

no ... never had a 4-Cylinder InLine engine come to my Dyno with a real Harmonic Damper ... all they had was a solid Hub !

Horrible results :lol:
my experiences => 4-Cyl on the Dyno , the vibrations + induction pulsing popped-off the Air Turbine Fan + the Honeycombe
right out the Air Turbine so that all i saw looking into the room was the white Turbine Fan decending thru the air
like a top helicopter :lol:

i had to go double-check every Dyno + engine mounting bolts to make sure they were still tight after each Pull

Paul VanDerLey told me same thing happen to him constantly
when he was developing 4- Cyl engine for Pontiac ??
i have the thin Book in my shop from his research
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Re: NA Engine With No Damper?

Post by RDY4WAR »

Here's screenshots of the Engine Masters episode showing what they used for the lightweight parts. There's the dyno graph and then comparison.
Capture+_2020-09-25-18-03-28.png
Capture+_2020-09-25-18-05-21.png
Capture+_2020-09-25-18-06-05.png
Capture+_2020-09-25-18-06-51.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
maxracesoftware
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Re: NA Engine With No Damper?

Post by maxracesoftware »

RDY4WAR wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:11 pm Here's screenshots of the Engine Masters episode showing what they used for the lightweight parts. There's the dyno graph and then comparison.

Capture+_2020-09-25-18-03-28.png

Capture+_2020-09-25-18-05-21.png

Capture+_2020-09-25-18-06-05.png

Capture+_2020-09-25-18-06-51.png
please ... please ... Post the Link to those tests 8)
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Re: NA Engine With No Damper?

Post by SpeierRacingHeads »

Image
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Re: NA Engine With No Damper?

Post by RDY4WAR »

maxracesoftware wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:47 pm
RDY4WAR wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:11 pm Here's screenshots of the Engine Masters episode showing what they used for the lightweight parts. There's the dyno graph and then comparison.

Capture+_2020-09-25-18-03-28.png

Capture+_2020-09-25-18-05-21.png

Capture+_2020-09-25-18-06-05.png

Capture+_2020-09-25-18-06-51.png
please ... please ... Post the Link to those tests 8)
https://www.motortrendondemand.com/deta ... s/1109629/
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Re: NA Engine With No Damper?

Post by maxracesoftware »

SpeierRacingHeads wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:01 pm Image
typically because Aluminum Solid Hub expands so much when hot
Crankshaft harmonics along with heat , can lossen Hub press-fit enough to start galling the Solid Hub
where it rubs against the Crank/Cam bottom timing gear .

in your Pics its hard to see , but maybe some galling going on ??/ can't be sure looking at the pic
but i've seen this galling many times with Solid Hubs used in place of real Harmonic Dampers .
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Re: NA Engine With No Damper?

Post by maxracesoftware »

RDY4WAR wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:23 pm
maxracesoftware wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:47 pm
RDY4WAR wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:11 pm Here's screenshots of the Engine Masters episode showing what they used for the lightweight parts. There's the dyno graph and then comparison.

Capture+_2020-09-25-18-03-28.png

Capture+_2020-09-25-18-05-21.png

Capture+_2020-09-25-18-06-05.png

Capture+_2020-09-25-18-06-51.png
please ... please ... Post the Link to those tests 8)
https://www.motortrendondemand.com/deta ... s/1109629/
RDY4WAR ,thanks for that Link

the Balancer part of that Dyno test is invalid because its not directly comparing effects of a real Damper -vs- Aluminum Hub
so that real effects are hidden from you in their Data !

what they should have done is just compare only real Damper -vs- Aluminum Hub ... then you would see real effects !
i know they were just testing total weights against each other at different RPM/SEC Rates ... thats all those tests were about .

you can get a similar data output from choosing different acceleration test rates in PipeMax v4.50
however , it will be just the difference in RPM/SEC , no inputs for actually changing the Flywheel or Balancer/Hub weights separatetly .
PipeMax v4.50 RPM/SEC data is based-off 30-32 lbs Flywheel + Dyno drive disc adapter

i've tested 40lbs steel flywheel -vs= 30lbs -vs- aluminum -vs- auto trans flexplate w/spacers on same engines
i get similar results as that video .

 
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Re: NA Engine With No Damper?

Post by RDY4WAR »

Thanks for the reply. I figured something was off there.

So in your experience, would an ATI Super Damper aluminum shell 6.75" (4.5 lbs) be worth a few hp compared to a stock 12 lb 7.5" damper in a drag car?
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Re: NA Engine With No Damper?

Post by maxracesoftware »

RDY4WAR wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:39 pm Thanks for the reply. I figured something was off there.

So in your experience, would an ATI Super Damper aluminum shell 6.75" (4.5 lbs) be worth a few hp compared to a stock 12 lb 7.5" damper in a drag car?
yes !

i did do 1 Dyno test with ATI Super Damper aluminum -vs- regular ATI heavier steel Damper
and the lighter aluminum version was a little more HP

... i still have both of these in my Shop for my personal engines .... likewise various other Solid Alum Hubs , Fluid Damper,
1 brand new in box BBC external ATI Damper + 1 brand new in box 400cid SBC external ATI Damper .... for future dyno tests
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Re: NA Engine With No Damper?

Post by tenxal »

maxracesoftware wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:35 pmlong ago, when NHRA first came out with Damper specs + requirements, Solid Aluminum Hub/Dampers became popular mostly because they were cheap alternative to beat new Rules, can't really call it a Damper : i ran a very small diameter red anodized Moroso Solid Aluminum Hub/Damper on my 3.250" Stroke C/ED 316cid Engine, trick John Lingenfelter C/ED steel pan ,5.67 rear gears , crossed 10000+ RPM every pass
still have the Pan + the Solid Aluminum Hub ... and a much larger heavier ATI Balancer was worth more HP on this engine in Dyno tests

Craig's Record setting A/ND and B/ND engines use just a solid Hub
reason : no way to run a real Damper because of all the front-driven drives Magneto,etc
Craig wants to run a ATI Damper , but can't fit it in
Several months ago, I was given one of the old Moroso red hubs to try on the dyno for my 327 Stocker engine. Two pals who use them on their 265 and 283 Super Stock engines see 3-4 hp increases every time they A-B-A test them on the same dyno. Main and rod bearings are generally good for 2-3 seasons and rpms are north of 8,500. I just couldn't make myself try it, though. :lol:

I occasionally crew on a pal's Comp car, so I know who "Craig" is. :wink: Hard racer! =D>
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Re: NA Engine With No Damper?

Post by oscaracme »

maxracesoftware wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:25 pm
lefty o wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:00 pm the right dampener will actually gain you power.
i did a bunch of different Damper tests for Troy Coughlin's (Jegs) NHRA ProStocker in 1994
ATI , Rattler, Fluid Damper, etc.

and then i personally did a bunch on various engines i had in my Shop -vs- no Damper

you will always loose TQ and HP if you run without a Damper
ATI Damper always beat out the other Dampers i tested thru the years !

i put all that Data info into equation form in PipeMax v4.50
so you can instantly see how much TQ and HP a Damper or without a Damper can give you

Edit : i forgot about Innovators West Dampers ... these Dampers were neck-and-neck HP results as ATI Damper in Dyno tests on NHRA SuperStockers
Did you see where one type (fluid vs. o-ring style) worked better or worse at different rpm's?
ATI used to and maybe still does show a graph where below a certain rpm, the fluid style actually worked a little better.
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Re: NA Engine With No Damper?

Post by dfarr67 »

Was interested in the TCI 'Rattler'- where does this dampe fit in?
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Re: NA Engine With No Damper?

Post by maxracesoftware »

dfarr67 wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:04 pm Was interested in the TCI 'Rattler'- where does this dampe fit in?
on Troy Coughlin's 500cid ProStocker it was very close 2nd to ATI Damper

just makes a little rattling noise when first spinning/starting up the engine .. quite after that .
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Re: NA Engine With No Damper?

Post by Kevin Johnson »

oscaracme wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:58 am ...
ATI used to and maybe still does show a graph where below a certain rpm, the fluid style actually worked a little better.
http://www.atiracing.com/products/dampers/sae.htm

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