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Brake in oil

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Therriaultper
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Brake in oil

Post by Therriaultper »

How dirty should brake in oil get with sheer metal ? Bin using my engine run stand to brake in motors an when I drain the the oil seam to have a slight sliver tint to it ! I use black moley on the cams so the oil is dark an I cut the filters open to check for metals but seem to be clean ! I use br30 or 40 and some time us cen p co oil. Any insight thanks !!
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Re: Brake in oil

Post by ProPower engines »

Therriaultper wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:03 pm How dirty should brake in oil get with sheer metal ? Bin using my engine run stand to brake in motors an when I drain the the oil seam to have a slight sliver tint to it ! I use black moley on the cams so the oil is dark an I cut the filters open to check for metals but seem to be clean ! I use br30 or 40 and some time us cen p co oil. Any insight thanks !!
So what brand of oil are you using???
There is always a bit of shit in the 1st run up that can tint the oil a bit but most shops use a purpose blended
break in oil like Joe Gibbs BR series. Available in several weights based on your needs at breakin time but it is
50,000 times better then trying to use a voo doo blend your self [-X
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Re: Brake in oil

Post by turbo camino »

No, your brakes will not work very well when submerged in oil.
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Re: Brake in oil

Post by Schurkey »

turbo camino wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:43 am No, your brakes will not work very well when submerged in oil.
I've got a riding lawn-mower that has a tiny (3" or so) brake rotor built into the transaxle. It's an oil-bath brake; the rotor and the "pads" are steel.

So, sure, there are some goofy applications for brake-in-oil.
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Re: Brake in oil

Post by RDY4WAR »

It's normal for the initial startup. No matter how well you machine the parts, you're going to have microasperities that contact and break off the moment you fire the engine for the first time. This is why I recommend a good filter with high filtration for break-in (ie: NOT a Wix XP, K&N, or a Racing filter). Fram Ultraguard filters are 99% efficient @ 20 um and what I use. Wix XP and K&N is <80% @ 20 um and Wix Racing is <50% @ 20 um.
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Re: Brake in oil

Post by Krooser »

He's using Driven SAE 30 or 40 or CenPeCo... both high quality oils.

I like to use a high filtration filter on break-in, too. Then swap to a WIX 51515R.

Next season I am going to dyno my engine then change the filter and go racing. Put a couple nights on thevcar then change the oil.

From then on I may try running all season just changing the filter and topping off the oil. I know several guys who have good luck with this approach.
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Re: Brake in oil

Post by Walter R. Malik »

RDY4WAR wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:42 pm It's normal for the initial startup. No matter how well you machine the parts, you're going to have microasperities that contact and break off the moment you fire the engine for the first time. This is why I recommend a good filter with high filtration for break-in (ie: NOT a Wix XP, K&N, or a Racing filter). Fram Ultraguard filters are 99% efficient @ 20 um and what I use. Wix XP and K&N is <80% @ 20 um and Wix Racing is <50% @ 20 um.
When the filtering element is ultra fine and to flow enough volume of cold oil the "By-Pass" within the filter opens; absolutely no filtration takes place when that happens.

Be aware of what is actually happening.
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Re: Brake in oil

Post by David Redszus »

The break-in oil that is used is FAR less important than the break-in procedure that is used.

Whatever oil is used, before and after oil analysis should be used.
Without actual facts, its all worthless opinion.
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Re: Brake in oil

Post by RDY4WAR »

Walter R. Malik wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:06 pm
RDY4WAR wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:42 pm It's normal for the initial startup. No matter how well you machine the parts, you're going to have microasperities that contact and break off the moment you fire the engine for the first time. This is why I recommend a good filter with high filtration for break-in (ie: NOT a Wix XP, K&N, or a Racing filter). Fram Ultraguard filters are 99% efficient @ 20 um and what I use. Wix XP and K&N is <80% @ 20 um and Wix Racing is <50% @ 20 um.
When the filtering element is ultra fine and to flow enough volume of cold oil the "By-Pass" within the filter opens; absolutely no filtration takes place when that happens.

Be aware of what is actually happening.
Having studied bypass events with pressure probes before and after the filter, I can assure you that bypass events are rare. With a 5w-40 oil, high volume pump, and a standard Wix 51515 filter, the only time I found a bypass event on that SBF was when the engine was free revved from idle to 6000 rpm with 80*F oil temp. By the time, the oil was 110*F, even then it wasn't opening. Testing at the dragstrip, with a standard 12 psi bypass, it never opened once. I know this because the pressure differential never reached 12 psi. It peaked at 8.5 psi difference on the hit off the line and stayed 3-6 psi the rest of the way down the track.

You're not going to be in bypass with a new engine with 70*F oil at 2000 rpm, even with a 20w-50 oil. Peg it to redline and you might, but you wouldn't be doing that on a fresh engine anyway.

Also note that just because a filter has high filtration efficiency doesn't mean the flow is worse. The Fram Ultra XG8A flows 4.2 psid @ 12 gpm. The Wix 51515 XP is 4.1 psid @ 12 gpm, same as the K&N, and with far worse efficiency. The standard Wix 51515 is 95% @ 21 um and it flows just 5.6 psid @ 12 gpm. The test oil for that is the equivalent of a heavy 40 grade.
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Re: Brake in oil

Post by Powertrip »

RDY4WAR wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:48 pm
Walter R. Malik wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:06 pm
RDY4WAR wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:42 pm It's normal for the initial startup. No matter how well you machine the parts, you're going to have microasperities that contact and break off the moment you fire the engine for the first time. This is why I recommend a good filter with high filtration for break-in (ie: NOT a Wix XP, K&N, or a Racing filter). Fram Ultraguard filters are 99% efficient @ 20 um and what I use. Wix XP and K&N is <80% @ 20 um and Wix Racing is <50% @ 20 um.
When the filtering element is ultra fine and to flow enough volume of cold oil the "By-Pass" within the filter opens; absolutely no filtration takes place when that happens.

Be aware of what is actually happening.
Having studied bypass events with pressure probes before and after the filter, I can assure you that bypass events are rare. With a 5w-40 oil, high volume pump, and a standard Wix 51515 filter, the only time I found a bypass event on that SBF was when the engine was free revved from idle to 6000 rpm with 80*F oil temp. By the time, the oil was 110*F, even then it wasn't opening. Testing at the dragstrip, with a standard 12 psi bypass, it never opened once. I know this because the pressure differential never reached 12 psi. It peaked at 8.5 psi difference on the hit off the line and stayed 3-6 psi the rest of the way down the track.

You're not going to be in bypass with a new engine with 70*F oil at 2000 rpm, even with a 20w-50 oil. Peg it to redline and you might, but you wouldn't be doing that on a fresh engine anyway.

Also note that just because a filter has high filtration efficiency doesn't mean the flow is worse. The Fram Ultra XG8A flows 4.2 psid @ 12 gpm. The Wix 51515 XP is 4.1 psid @ 12 gpm, same as the K&N, and with far worse efficiency. The standard Wix 51515 is 95% @ 21 um and it flows just 5.6 psid @ 12 gpm. The test oil for that is the equivalent of a heavy 40 grade.
Thank you, RDY4WAR! My go-to filter is the standard Wix 51515, so now I have to look into the Fram XG8A.
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Re: Brake in oil

Post by FC-Pilot »

RDY4WAR wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:48 pm Having studied bypass events with pressure probes before and after the filter, I can assure you that bypass events are rare. With a 5w-40 oil, high volume pump, and a standard Wix 51515 filter, the only time I found a bypass event on that SBF was when the engine was free revved from idle to 6000 rpm with 80*F oil temp. By the time, the oil was 110*F, even then it wasn't opening. Testing at the dragstrip, with a standard 12 psi bypass, it never opened once. I know this because the pressure differential never reached 12 psi. It peaked at 8.5 psi difference on the hit off the line and stayed 3-6 psi the rest of the way down the track.

You're not going to be in bypass with a new engine with 70*F oil at 2000 rpm, even with a 20w-50 oil. Peg it to redline and you might, but you wouldn't be doing that on a fresh engine anyway.

Also note that just because a filter has high filtration efficiency doesn't mean the flow is worse. The Fram Ultra XG8A flows 4.2 psid @ 12 gpm. The Wix 51515 XP is 4.1 psid @ 12 gpm, same as the K&N, and with far worse efficiency. The standard Wix 51515 is 95% @ 21 um and it flows just 5.6 psid @ 12 gpm. The test oil for that is the equivalent of a heavy 40 grade.
I am not going to tell you your findings are wrong as spending more than a decade testing for major auto makers has taught me to trust data, but I have two different Fram filters that internally crushed the filter element in on itself. In my applications that tells me there is a substantial differential taking place. Those lessons were expensive and so I am less worried about a tiny spec of junk getting in a bearing and more worried about a filter turning my engine into junk.

Again, I am not saying you are wrong, just sharing what has happened in two cases in engines I built. YMMV

Paul
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Re: Brake in oil

Post by RDY4WAR »

FC-Pilot wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:17 pm
RDY4WAR wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:48 pm Having studied bypass events with pressure probes before and after the filter, I can assure you that bypass events are rare. With a 5w-40 oil, high volume pump, and a standard Wix 51515 filter, the only time I found a bypass event on that SBF was when the engine was free revved from idle to 6000 rpm with 80*F oil temp. By the time, the oil was 110*F, even then it wasn't opening. Testing at the dragstrip, with a standard 12 psi bypass, it never opened once. I know this because the pressure differential never reached 12 psi. It peaked at 8.5 psi difference on the hit off the line and stayed 3-6 psi the rest of the way down the track.

You're not going to be in bypass with a new engine with 70*F oil at 2000 rpm, even with a 20w-50 oil. Peg it to redline and you might, but you wouldn't be doing that on a fresh engine anyway.

Also note that just because a filter has high filtration efficiency doesn't mean the flow is worse. The Fram Ultra XG8A flows 4.2 psid @ 12 gpm. The Wix 51515 XP is 4.1 psid @ 12 gpm, same as the K&N, and with far worse efficiency. The standard Wix 51515 is 95% @ 21 um and it flows just 5.6 psid @ 12 gpm. The test oil for that is the equivalent of a heavy 40 grade.
I am not going to tell you your findings are wrong as spending more than a decade testing for major auto makers has taught me to trust data, but I have two different Fram filters that internally crushed the filter element in on itself. In my applications that tells me there is a substantial differential taking place. Those lessons were expensive and so I am less worried about a tiny spec of junk getting in a bearing and more worried about a filter turning my engine into junk.

Again, I am not saying you are wrong, just sharing what has happened in two cases in engines I built. YMMV

Paul
I've had Fram failures as well from back in the 2000s. Fram's issues began when they were sold off to Honeywell who imprisoned Fram down in Mexico thanks to Clinton's NAFTA. They had all kinds of standpipe and ADBV issues during that era.

However, Rank Group acquired Fram in 2011 and brought the production back stateside (with exception of the HP series). The R&D budget was boosted and issues were addressed. Going over my spreadsheet, I've cut open 67 used Fram oil filters since 2015 without a single failure found. These filters came off of all kinds of engines to include many daily commuters, dirt track engines, drag racing engines, a cummins diesel that went 105k miles on 1 oil change (and was still serviceable), and a few to 20-30k mile intervals in gas engines.

The problem child these days is Purolator. Ever since they were acquired by M+H, they've been plagued with media tears. This includes the brands made by Purolator such as Motorcraft. I've cut open several failures with them myself and complaints to Purolator have fallen on deaf ears. Wix was also acquired by M+H a few years ago and have slowly started to see drops in quality control with leaking gaskets. Some of the filters are now being made in Mexico and Korea.

The oil filter industry has pretty much flipped 180 compared to 10 years ago.
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Re: Brake in oil

Post by Dragsinger »

Speaking of your oil filter research, other than Fram, what are other quality oil filters? Baldwin? Delco? MOPAR? K & N?
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Re: Brake in oil

Post by FC-Pilot »

RDY4WAR, yes my Fram issues were during that era. First one was on our dragster. We did not have our dyno setup yet so we figured we would dial it in at the track like we always did. Fired it up and had extremely low oil pressure. We put different gauges on as well as in different places in the engine. Last possible thing to try before tearing the engine down was the filter. We had a Walmart brand filter on the shelf, slapped it in and pressure was right where it should have been.

A month later while speaking to a racing friend who works at Honeywell he warned us about them. he did not say where manufacturing was but that they were going to be an issue.

The second was after building an engine for a friend we told him when he picked the engine up to never put a fram on the engine. Four months later he comes back with the engine in his truck saying it was making noise. We drained the junky oil and pulled the filter (Which was a fram he put on after an oil change) to find the element all crushed into the center of the filter. This engine had the bypass blocked off. Anyway, I learned the need for a bypass as well as the fact that not all filters are created equal. RDY4WAR, Thanks for sharing your info.

My big concern is based on the pressure differential across the filter media. I have not put transducers in like you have, but it is clear with the issues I have had that there is a bigger differential in what I am building than what you have seen in your testing. If it were not the case then I should not have seen the issues I am seeing. For this reason I prefer filters that might flow a little better and don’t filter the oil as fine instead of using filters that would remove smaller particles but flow less. Again, that is just my personal preference.

Paul
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Re: Brake in oil

Post by dfarr67 »

funny how you settle into a brand and they let you down- Wix was my go to, Napa Gold second. And I just bought my last order of ACD that were from China.
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