Radical/Ground Breaking Builds ?

[nitro2]

Compare a late model ICE performance car, Challenger, Mustang, Camaro, with intercooled supercharger.
They are very difficult to control wide open; rarely possible to keep in one lane.
A Tesla runs with any of them, in fact will beat them most of the time because they are easy to control.

That's fine, but you are talking car vs car. If a person loves cars then maybe an electric car is what they want or maybe not, depends on what turns them on. However for people that love engines an electric motor is not an engine, it might as well be an empty box of cereal lol, but an electric motor is an oncoming threat. The public as a whole is not demanding electric vehicles, yet, and they are not wanting to ban engines, yet, but they will because there is a big wave of change happening, electric vehicles are only a part of it, and the resistance to what is mostly unnecessary change is just not sufficient.

[nitro2]

I do wish I had some trick builds to report on, but I just think that time has passed in my world.

There are actually a lot of people doing very creative things out there, many on a shoestring budget, and often international. These people are not in their 20s, but probably 30-50 yrs old (not too old to learn and not so young as to know it all lol). Internet searches/help and online shopping unfortunately leads to a lack of innovation/incentive to innovate, but if you happen to want something that doesn't exist then voila the wheels start turning again lol.

[hoffman900]

I mean, at some point you still hit a wall though.

I can design and learn about camshaft design all I want and do it for cheaply if I wrote my own code, but at some point you need to machine the thing and that costs money. At some point I’ll also need to break things to understand the limits.

Same goes for a crankshaft, rods, pistons, etc.

This on top of the tens to hundreds of million dollars that have been invested over the years in figuring things out.

[Chris_Hamilton]

On the topic of the oil industry, subsidies are few and far between. It is hardly a "subsidized industry". Plus what will happen if electrics become the norm to the billions of dollars generated each year by federal and state fuel taxes. In my simple mind, unless and until electrics can recharge in approximately the time it takes to refill your car, they are a step down. The whole "save the planet" thing is bullshit, unless and until the real polluters in this world clean up their act. The entire EV Industry only exists because it has been subsidized by the Government.

[hoffman900]

On the topic of the oil industry, subsidies are few and far between. It is hardly a "subsidized industry". Plus what will happen if electrics become the norm to the billions of dollars generated each year by federal and state fuel taxes. In my simple mind, unless and until electrics can recharge in approximately the time it takes to refill your car, they are a step down. The whole "save the planet" thing is bullshit, unless and until the real polluters in this world clean up their act. The entire EV Industry only exists because it has been subsidized by the Government.

Disagree with that. In the US, they’re mostly done through taxes. These deductions are spread out across many lines, so when they are added together, add up to a big number.

In the rest of the world, governments directly subsidize it. Oil is traded on the world market. It’s as much (or more) effected by what Saudi Arabia, Russia, etc all do, or demands from India, China, etc. than anything we have going on here.

The deal with electricity is this, none of it is green, but it’s more efficient to make energy in bulk, then to have individual Ic engines running around at like twenty something percent efficiency. A modern cogen plant is north of 65% efficient. When you factor it across how much is consumed 40-60% gain in efficiency cuts consumption by a A LOT.

Lastly, tax codes will have to be rewritten. Most highway departments are chronically underfunded as is and gas taxes aren’t high enough. I know most don’t want to hear that, but it’s true.

[hoffman900]

Back on topic and speaking of radical designs, did Jesel ever get their Equal 8 engine running?
https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/ ... 00-rpm-v8/

[Chris_Hamilton]

Sorry for the going Off Topic and last post on this I promise. Not trying to get into a pissing contest with you Sir, but I must disagree. Economics 101. Tax deductions are not subsidies. There is a real difference between the two. If you believe that, then you believe that all profit a company makes is the Governments and by allowing a Company to keep more of its profit that it generated through its endeavors is subsidizing it. In no uncertain terms should allowing a company or an Individual to keep more of their hard earned money be considered a Subsidy.
A subsidy is a grant, or loan guarantee, or building infrastructure like a road or a building for a business or industry. Not keeping more of your own money.

[David Redszus]

The older generation grew up without internet and cell phones. They didn't have Amazon to order something online and have it on your doorstep the next day. Today's kids are spoiled by these things and take them for granted. The desire to build upon what we have is lost as you can always just buy something better.

It was the older generation that invented the internet and cell phones. We did not have Amazon available to buy something cheaply made in China. We had to design and fabricate the parts we needed by ourselves. We learned to draw and read blueprints, to accurately measure various components, to run a mill and a lathe, and computer and an ECU, and multiple engine and suspension simulation programs. What have aspiring racers done to prepare themselves to design,
build, and compete?

More important, where would a younger person (under 50?) go to learn about motorsports and all that it entails?
YouTube? The motorsport comic books? The Internet? Gentlemen...start your keyboards!

There is some glimmer of hope. Its called Formula SAE; where students learn to build race cars from the ground up.
And what some of those kids are capable of doing is very impressive. But even here, the US is falling behind other countries who regularly kick our ass in competition. Inconceivable. And very sad.

[mt-engines]

The older generation grew up without internet and cell phones. They didn't have Amazon to order something online and have it on your doorstep the next day. Today's kids are spoiled by these things and take them for granted. The desire to build upon what we have is lost as you can always just buy something better.

It was the older generation that invented the internet and cell phones. We did not have Amazon available to buy something cheaply made in China. We had to design and fabricate the parts we needed by ourselves. We learned to draw and read blueprints, to accurately measure various components, to run a mill and a lathe, and computer and an ECU, and multiple engine and suspension simulation programs. What have aspiring racers done to prepare themselves to design,
build, and compete?

More important, where would a younger person (under 50?) go to learn about motorsports and all that it entails?
YouTube? The motorsport comic books? The Internet? Gentlemen...start your keyboards!

There is some glimmer of hope. Its called Formula SAE; where students learn to build race cars from the ground up.
And what some of those kids are capable of doing is very impressive. But even here, the US is falling behind other countries who regularly kick our ass in competition. Inconceivable. And very sad.

When I was involved in Formula SAE some 15 years ago, it seemed too many cooks in the kitchen was the problem. Many unwilling to trial and error outside of simulation.

The younger generations use YouTube for everything, there is nothing they can't do. I get so dumbfounded how the internet encourages idiots to be famous. The movie Idiocracy may just be a documentary on current society.

[GARY C]

Anyone working on, or even contemplating, a radical or ground breaking or just way out there build ? Anything. Sorry.....getting tired of hearing about what cam to use in a 350 Chevy to run 11s lol, this is "Speed-Talk the home of racing's best and brightest".

I think the issue is that the craft has split into two groups:

1. Budget constrained projects built from garage left-overs.
2. Late model performance cars that are so well optimized that an individual or the performance aftermarket can't afford the R&D to improve on the OEM parts unless they change the operating requirements. For this segment there isn't enough left on the table to chase after, let alone the emission's modification laws and warrantee.

I don't think there is a home for anything new in the market.
The nitro teams that I spent some effort to help could not afford to risk their tune to try even something they thought would work.

A lot of smart people working on new battery ideas but not particularly for performance cars.
A battery break-through will be a game-changer for lot's of projects.

I have moved on to electric powered vehicles for my regular job, but still design some castings for people in the aftermarket.

I don't think there is a home for anything new in the market.

Example one of why you wont see those who are actually doing any thing new post here.

[David Redszus]

The older generation grew up without internet and cell phones. They didn't have Amazon to order something online and have it on your doorstep the next day. Today's kids are spoiled by these things and take them for granted. The desire to build upon what we have is lost as you can always just buy something better.

It was the older generation that invented the internet and cell phones. We did not have Amazon available to buy something cheaply made in China. We had to design and fabricate the parts we needed by ourselves. We learned to draw and read blueprints, to accurately measure various components, to run a mill and a lathe, and computer and an ECU, and multiple engine and suspension simulation programs. What have aspiring racers done to prepare themselves to design,
build, and compete?

More important, where would a younger person (under 50?) go to learn about motorsports and all that it entails?
YouTube? The motorsport comic books? The Internet? Gentlemen...start your keyboards!

There is some glimmer of hope. Its called Formula SAE; where students learn to build race cars from the ground up.
And what some of those kids are capable of doing is very impressive. But even here, the US is falling behind other countries who regularly kick our ass in competition. Inconceivable. And very sad.

When I was involved in Formula SAE some 15 years ago, it seemed too many cooks in the kitchen was the problem. Many unwilling to trial and error outside of simulation.

The younger generations use YouTube for everything, there is nothing they can't do. I get so dumbfounded how the internet encourages idiots to be famous. The movie Idiocracy may just be a documentary on current society.

Formula SAE faculty advisors often have little real world experience. University engineering departments have tossed
their machine shops and student work areas. SAE is now headed toward virtual competitions where there is no
real need to actually build a race car.

[GARY C]

I think the issue is that the craft has split into two groups:

1. Budget constrained projects built from garage left-overs.
2. Late model performance cars that are so well optimized that an individual or the performance aftermarket can't afford the R&D to improve on the OEM parts unless they change the operating requirements. For this segment there isn't enough left on the table to chase after, let alone the emission's modification laws and warrantee.

I don't think there is a home for anything new in the market.
The nitro teams that I spent some effort to help could not afford to risk their tune to try even something they thought would work.

A lot of smart people working on new battery ideas but not particularly for performance cars.
A battery break-through will be a game-changer for lot's of projects.

I have moved on to electric powered vehicles for my regular job, but still design some castings for people in the aftermarket.

There is a lot of 1) on ST these days, nothing wrong with that, responses get people from A to B, but those type of posts are far different from the type of posts on ST in the 2005 to 2010 era.

TFX continues to see various small companies come along with interesting engine ideas and application ideas, obviously I can't relay what those companies are working on, most are quite small, self funded and probably hope to patent what they have or just use it for their own purposes. It is very cool though that there are still people out there using their heads to come up with new things, instead of just thinking that anything worth doing has already been done or can be found by Googling. I think people are progressively falling into the trap of Googling everything and not thinking for themselves.......I'm sure there is a fictional book or two from the past predicting this sort of thing lol.

No personal interest at all in electric. If they build an electric car that runs 0-60 in 2 seconds flat, makes me coffee and does my laundry, the interest will still be nil lol.

The other issue here is the younger generation that think Computer Models are the answer to building the perfect engine but don't actually test their results to correlate one vs the other.

[GARY C]

Then again when your "Forum Leader" makes a statement like this...

One other thing, if a person is asking for a little performance help on their normally aspirated engine, and you comment "Supercharge it", "Put a turbo on it", or "throw some nitrous on it", I will ban you for life.

Why would anyone want to share their opinion or work here when there are 1000 other forums they could post on where they are not threatened for their free speech?

I would have never learned how to use nitrous or it's advantage if I had disregarded those who said something I "thought" I didn't want to here.

[hoffman900]

I think the issue is that the craft has split into two groups:

1. Budget constrained projects built from garage left-overs.
2. Late model performance cars that are so well optimized that an individual or the performance aftermarket can't afford the R&D to improve on the OEM parts unless they change the operating requirements. For this segment there isn't enough left on the table to chase after, let alone the emission's modification laws and warrantee.

I don't think there is a home for anything new in the market.
The nitro teams that I spent some effort to help could not afford to risk their tune to try even something they thought would work.

A lot of smart people working on new battery ideas but not particularly for performance cars.
A battery break-through will be a game-changer for lot's of projects.

I have moved on to electric powered vehicles for my regular job, but still design some castings for people in the aftermarket.

There is a lot of 1) on ST these days, nothing wrong with that, responses get people from A to B, but those type of posts are far different from the type of posts on ST in the 2005 to 2010 era.

TFX continues to see various small companies come along with interesting engine ideas and application ideas, obviously I can't relay what those companies are working on, most are quite small, self funded and probably hope to patent what they have or just use it for their own purposes. It is very cool though that there are still people out there using their heads to come up with new things, instead of just thinking that anything worth doing has already been done or can be found by Googling. I think people are progressively falling into the trap of Googling everything and not thinking for themselves.......I'm sure there is a fictional book or two from the past predicting this sort of thing lol.

No personal interest at all in electric. If they build an electric car that runs 0-60 in 2 seconds flat, makes me coffee and does my laundry, the interest will still be nil lol.

The other issue here is the younger generation that think Computer Models are the answer to building the perfect engine but don't actually test their results to correlate one vs the other.

That isn’t true.

How many young people do you know doing that work? I don’t know a single person who was educated to do modeling of any type that thinks you don’t need to do correlations.

Part of the problem here is that a lot of the experts got tired of having their hard earned and deserved respect questioned. Then there are the cult of personalities and their followers who clogged up good discussions.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

I don't think there is a home for anything new in the market.

Example one of why you wont see those who are actually doing any thing new post here.

OK, post some examples of anything "Ground Breaking" that is being done anywhere in IC engines.

That quote about "home for innovative things" was originally written in a long hand-written letter to me by Don Hubbard (well known in cam design in Cranes era), when I was developing valvetrain ideas. He knew of a lot of my work and advised me to stop investing time and money into things that have no home.

"No home" means something that is not commercially viable.

Taking his advice improved my career very quickly; a few years later I was developing the CAD tools and methods at Daimler in Mercedes in Germany that thousands of engineers would use. That experience made it even more clear how little interest there is in "Ground Breaking" ideas.

On another project I learned that Ford has a receiving department for unsolicited inventions. They destroy the package without opening it with systems to verify that is what they did.

Working at Edelbrock, there were lot's of people sending in inventions, some went to great length to convince V.P.s to have a meeting. They would fly in with so much excitement.
Not one of the ideas was even close to being viable.
When I first started working there it was kind of interesting to see what people would bring.
After a while I understood why veterans there tried to avoid those meetings, it was the inevitable task of letting the inventor down after they were so invested in the idea. The problem is, they never accept reality, and will argue about things they clearly don't understand.

I collect books on alternative engine designs.
I have modeled many of them in CAD trying to find work-around for their fatal flaws.
Having done that, I have a deeper understanding of them than their inventors do.
I have built some of my own and helped others, made parts for Matt Holtzberg Polimotor when I worked at Bryants.
Even that engine was only "ground breaking" in materials and structure.
I built 2-cylinder opposed 2 stroke engines and rotary valve cylinder heads.

Looking back, I had a similar experience with Rotary Valve Cylinder head inventors. I had posted an offer to develop a good rotary-valve cylinder head design at my shop. For more than 10 years I received replies.
Here are the take aways:
1. The more concerned the inventor is with protecting the idea, the worse the idea is.
2. Every single one of them has at least one fatal flaw that makes them worse than poppet valves.
3. None of them will face the flaw head-on, in fact all of them wanted to build the engine and find a work-around after it was built.
4. When they could be convinced to try to develop solutions to obvious problems, they made even worse problems.
5. Few of them understood the properties of materials, let alone principles of how bearings and seals work.
6. When it came to telling them that I was not interested in building the design unless a problem was solved, paranoid conspiracy replies began, some of them evolving to death threats.
7. Many of them had lost friends, family, fortune and employment chasing their inventions. Some blew large inheritances.

To sum it up, the rotary valve cylinder head is a unsolvable Rubik cube that drives it's players to insanity if played too long.
Alternative engine design is the super-category in which rotary valve cylinder heads is just member.
It is a captivating challenge that rarely pays-off.


Looking forward to "Ground Breaking" projects.
Sincerely, few things would interest me more.