SGM vs. VGS

EngineTech1 · Post by **EngineTech1** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:46 pm

I've used only vgs 20's so far in my experience but have recently been to a couple different shops that had the sgm 1500's and really seemed to like them saying that they were extra rigid and the fixture would wobble less and deflection was less due to the larger spindle and that they could cut seats faster and easier than with the vgs, has anyone else had any experiences like this with this machine or were these people simply defending the extra amount of money they spent on the big pimp machine?

PRH · Post by **PRH** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:53 pm

i dont have any input to the original question, but will add one to go along with the previous one.

i also have a VGS-20, and was wondering what kind of feedback anyone has on changing from the VGS style cutters to the newer SGM style tooling.

or, if anyone has tried the Newen/Serdi tool holders and bits on their VGS-20 machine.

EngineTech1 · Post by **EngineTech1** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:17 pm

We had all VSC tooling when I started here but I started converting over to newen tooling because I already had several of my own cutters for this type of tooling. The Newen tool holder and cutters are easier to set because of the adjusting screw and lock screws, also they are held at a 90 deg angle to the pilot which reduces deflection of the cutter especially with the carbide pilots. The VSC tooling tends to deflect more or even lose their setting when I use them on hard to machine seats like BeC where higher cutting pressures are needed. I don't have any problems like this with the newen cutter bodies and form cutters. One problem with the newen ball drive sections is that they don't fit the standard sunnen pilot size guite as tight as I'd like and they do take a bit of finesse to keep them from chattering. I get the best results by making my initial cuts on fresh seat rings with the newen cutters at around 100 to 125 rpm until I get to within about .010 of my desired depth. Then I slow down to 75 rpm for about .007 and then turn down spindle speed all the way and I try to already have the stop set so I can hit my depth on the stop with a little pressure on the feed handle, then I tighten the spindle lock and let the cutter make several revolutions before lifting the cutting pressure. Ideally you would want to let the cutter "spark out" but usually right before they totally spark out you will get some chatter and then get really mad. The runout is always within acceptable limits when I do it this way. When we buy our new shop equipment I am plannig on upgrading to the new sunnen tooling that is similar to the newen style of cutters but the sunnen cutter bodies fit the pilots much tighter and the digital setting ficture they have is very nice and accurate.

Fkned · Post by **Fkned** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:53 pm

I've owned both the vgs-20 and a sgm1500.I don't know the tooling for the sgm is much better and the spindle is stronger and less chatter is present,the fixture is much bigger and more stable then the vgs also.Is it honestly worth the extra money? imo no,but my machine had numerous problems fron the day it was delivered to my shop.The spindle didn't move at all when I uncrated it,which they made me wait 6 weeks to get fixed,they had to replace the entire head assembly.The fixture has always been way too tight and wouldn't spin freely,to the point that I had to use a rubber mallet to move it,the small star handle that they have on the fixture for small adjustments stripped out the threads and the c-clip almost imediately,and they refused to fix it.Oh yeah the digital setting fixture was off by .010 when setting up for seat insert cutters,I never had a problem w/the old mic setup they had before.
I had nothing but trouble,and absoluetley no sympathy,getting Sunnen to repair the machine,which imo was due to the fact I was a very small shop and only purchased one piece of equipment from them,if your a bigger shop w/more expences w/them I'm sure they will take much better care of you then they did me,they only took me.I sold the machine last year and was very glad to get 27,000 for it after using it for 2 1/2 years.I wish I never sold my VGS-20 and just switched the tooling over.I never had any trouble with my vgs machine but wanted something more stable and got a good deal on my vgs so...but in hind sight it was the wrong decsion.The ability to just change carbide cutters for vj's when they wore out was much better and cheaper then getting new blades for the vgs tooling,20.00 vs 40.00 I believe,and sharpening them was easier as well.

EngineTech1 · Post by **EngineTech1** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:13 pm

Thanks for the input, I am kind of surprised to hear the problems you had, I would have thought they would have had better support than that.
What kind of price difference is there between the two? I haven't gotten a quote yet on either one.

Fkned · Post by **Fkned** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:44 pm

I don't know exactly the costs,but I believe the SGM was in the area of 33-35K tooled w/digital depth mic and digital setting fixture.The VGS is considerably cheaper I think a buddy of mine paid around 20K or so for his tooled,but don't hold me to it.I bought my VGS-20 used for 14,500 tooled in Dec 99,it was 4-5 years old and I sold it for 14,500 in Jan 2002,so I basiclly used it for free,pretty good deal.I feel the VGS is a much better deal new or used,the SGM does nothing new that the VGS does and is much more expensive.Just get the new tooling and be on your way w/a VGS model.

EngineTech1 · Post by **EngineTech1** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:24 pm

Thanks for the insight, I'm pretty sure we'll be going with the VGS anyway but its good to hear some feedback.

Post by **ClassKing** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 3:07 am

Bought my VGS-20 in the fall of 93. This week was the first repair of any kind in eleven years. Wasn't fun - one of the air pucks that clamp the head in place when you let off the air died. Had two broken springs half the size of a ball point pen spring. Three days and $46.00 later I'm back in business. If anyone ever needs tips on pulling the head off and doing this repair keep my number. 909-370-0389

Damn good machine - way too expensive - but then what Sunnen product isn't. Their cheap financing got me started in business so I can't complain. Fully tooled with interest came to $32,000 over six years.....
Best Regards,
Bruce

Fkned · Post by **Fkned** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 10:00 pm

Yep never had a single problem w/my VGS-20 after 7 or so yrs of use.Since my SGM came in the door broke I can't say the same for it.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:08 pm

i just couldnt justify the difference in cost between the Sunnen tooling and the Newen stuff.
also, i have the Souix pilots....and it doesnt appear the Sunnen SGM tooling is available for them.

i ordered a couple of Newen bodies and bit holders....along with some bits....so we'll see how that set-up works out.
for the most part ive had good luck with the VGS tooling, but the bits are more expensive, and there aren't as many different profiles to choose from.
hopefully this will provide a decent alternative to the SGM tooling.

Dwayne Porter
Porter Racing Heads

jdeleon · Post by **jdeleon** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:42 pm

Been using a VGS 20 for probably over ten years now with vgs tooling, also using the newen serdi style bodies and cutters. All my future tooling purchases will be the newen serdi style cutters and bodies.
reason? alot easier to set cut dia ...... don't deflect as much on induction hardend seats ....... alot less faceting on cuts.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 8:55 pm

Is the VGS unit similar to the T&S 2000? Has anyone used the T&S that could offer some feedback as we are looking at the VGS and T&S.
Thanks