Future of head porting

[jcisworthy]

A while back, I was talking to a very successful, retired, engine machine shop owner when I said, to some extent I port all of the heads for every engine I build.

His reply was, "I was never that slow". Really hit home and made me think about the direction of my shop.

[PSA]

I believe humans will raise to the task as always, that's how we get more intelligent for each generation.
Improved OEM will perhaps leave less low hanging fruit on the tree, but people don't have to start from scratch with a 50's design either.
CAD and CFD is easy enough to pick up as knowledge, the problem might be the price of turning that into CNC work for a startup business.
Then again used machines are out there, and if you don't have to spend hours and hours to read and go through trial and error in hunt for information, you can spend more time being productive to pay off the machines.
And, how long will we have a need for this work until it's mostly electric, 50 years?

Is CFD used widely in the after market for port designs? I know it’s used at the OEM and high level racing level but what about your typical head shop with cnc capability?

I don't believe many have invested that way, but for the future it could be made cheaper and far easier by among other things software aimed at that market.
Will they make enough money to not go to other ventures, well if enough others do they can ask what they want, and some people will rather do something they love than have more money.

[David Redszus]

About 40 years ago, we were in the process of building several copies of the same BMW engine.

The first step was to find a junk head and cut it open to examine intake and exhaust ports.
Then several alternative port configurations were hand carved using a die grinder.
Each was flowed on a flow bench. The best ports (intake and exhaust) were selected
for duplication in all the other heads.

We used a pantograph device that allowed the machinist to trace the contours of the
selected port and cut the new heads to match. It was probably slower and less accurate
than the CNC process, but one hell of a lot faster than hand porting each head.

Were the results the very best possible? Probably not, but good enough to win every race.
(Well, actually only 11 out of 12).

And it did not cost an arm and a leg. Just cost some sleep.

[gunt]

No matter what you do there will be better paying jobs , will there be money out of it , depends , if you find power where others missed and marketing , but what i advise younger guys , never work at you hobby / or interests , as you will never charge enough as you will never count the extra time to have it just right . work at something you hate , you will charge loads and have loads of money for your hobby , [ if you get the point ] say teaching , serious hours/ months off to spend at the hobby and if it becomes something run it as a side business
i cannot see anyone setting up in the future , the equipment cost will be too much , i feel head flow really needs so sort of income to support you while you learn it and it takes years .
factory casting is becoming so much better , every engine will be boosted and GDI ports are very different and don't bode well to change unless to fully change to all out power ,

[HardcoreB1]

I have a set of CNC ported heads from a very well know porter. The flow figures are impressive, but comparing them port to port, on both intake and exhaust I was surprised. The best exhaust ports I put at 100%, but others were just over 95% of the best ports. Intakes slightly better, worse ports were 97.9% of the best (100%) ports.
So as said in posts ^^^^^, its just a copy or copies of someone's hand ported work, and if some of their port work is off port to port, you wont get all the ports flowing the same.
I am sending these for slight mods to get the bad ports up near the good ports flow so at least they are within 1 % of each other.
So you'll never replace experienced head ports...even with CNC stuff like these.

I am thinking that maybe your inconsistency flowing from port to port on cnc ports may be due to a number of factors like, head placement on the fixture, radius entry changes, flow bench repeatability, valve seats, or other things.
With our cnc ports, the left and right in a 23* chev is just a mirror image of the exact same port. If they are symmetrical ports, they are the exact same port transformed along the guide centerlines.
Providing the valve job is identical from port to port and the chamber is identical they should flow the same.
As a side note, most of my cnc ports flow slightly more than my master port. probably has something to do with the smoothing function in the program.

EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING SMEG

[HardcoreB1]

Every head I have had digitized the master ended up flowing more.


I don’t know how a shop could operate in places where properties cost so much. Cylinder head porters are not making near the hourly rate of other careers. For instance I had an electrician come out and tie in the power to my mini split and to the electrical panel. (I had already bought the wire and ran it through conduit.) He was going to charge me $900 until I flipped out on him. 3hours of work and no special equipment needed besides a fluke meter to make $300 an hour. I charge $950 to port a set of heads. It takes 40 hours requires a 30k seat and guide machine a 40k surfacer and a 10k flowbench. We aren’t making shit. On top of that unlike other careers you don’t just do a job, you have to be the BEST at what you do. Nobody wants the second best head porter but for an electrician you just pick one.

I could go on but let’s face it nobody reads long.

MANY good points made! Time to increase prices to a more fair rate because, in every other career payouts have gone up along with the cost of living.

[WeingartnerRacing]

Every head I have had digitized the master ended up flowing more.


I don’t know how a shop could operate in places where properties cost so much. Cylinder head porters are not making near the hourly rate of other careers. For instance I had an electrician come out and tie in the power to my mini split and to the electrical panel. (I had already bought the wire and ran it through conduit.) He was going to charge me $900 until I flipped out on him. 3hours of work and no special equipment needed besides a fluke meter to make $300 an hour. I charge $950 to port a set of heads. It takes 40 hours requires a 30k seat and guide machine a 40k surfacer and a 10k flowbench. We aren’t making shit. On top of that unlike other careers you don’t just do a job, you have to be the BEST at what you do. Nobody wants the second best head porter but for an electrician you just pick one.

I could go on but let’s face it nobody reads long.

MANY good points made! Time to increase prices to a more fair rate because, in every other career payouts have gone up along with the cost of living.

You really can’t because the cnc whores are selling there cnc ported heads for $600 a set. They don’t make much on a set and just focus on volume. Also the other guys are right this is just a hobby and eventually the customer just walks away from the sport because of cost.

[David Redszus]

Time to increase prices to a more fair rate because, in every other career payouts have gone up along with the cost of living.

Fair? What is fair? Fair to you or fair to me?

Fair is what is determined by the market place; a concept called supply and demand.

If you can find a way to produce a cylinder head at lower cost than I can, should
you be required to raise your price to match my inefficient price? If you do so,
you'll increase your profits substantially. If you don't, you are a fool and won't last long.

But my head is superior to yours in performance. Should I be required to lower my
quality to match yours? Is producing a superior product fair to the low quality producer?

The fact is that every transaction should reflect an exchange of values.
Both buyer and seller must agree to terms of fairness.

And then spec racing comes along and drives a stake into the heart of fairness.
Tightly controlled specifications prevent progress and protect incompetence.

[BLSTIC]

Those that do porting, how much of your income comes from street cars compared to what it used to in times gone by?

I recall reading about tenths being found with a valve job and seconds being found with a die grinder, but modern heads just aren't that crap any more. It won't be too long before LS heads are the only remnant of 2v technology and most 4v heads don't want for flow in stock-displacement engines. Neither case represents a head builder being able to make as much difference as they once did.

[novafornow]

I still feel that porting is a good value, I mean I am happy with "the bang for the buck". Never low ball my guy, just ask what I owe. And I am NOT a wealthy man.

[gunt]

I often wondered how to price , say an engine , and if you were successful to completely demolish the competition by producing 10-15 bhp or 40 more than anyone [ and proven track performance ] how should this be priced , to reflect development , so if you sell out slightly above the rest , soon they will find the bhp or copy your work ,
i see season winning engines 50yr old castings rebuilt, selling for 12k [ in a given class] but you can buy a full new engine for 6k .
cart engine controlled / sealed . new 1.5k championship willing one was offered 21k and this is for kids under 12

so my thinking was , [ a bit arrogant but no other way came to me ] to charge 1k for every bhp over the rest , at least for the extra work you did you are getting well paid until the rest find the bhp . and usually this relates to power in the head / combustion

[KnightEngines]

I just charge what I charge, which is more than many but not top dollar.
Enough that it's worth doing it.
Walk ins sometimes keep walking, but more than enough seek me out that I never lack for work.
You don't want to do work for cheap asses anyway & if you do then more will follow.
You want to do work for guys that appreciate the skill & experience required to do higher end porting work, not only are they prepared to pay for quality they are usually more than happy to refer more good work.

[BILL-C]

I have been in this business for 40 years now and the changes have been stunning. Just like every other aspect in life, evolving new technologies are having a major impact.Including myself, there are 10 people out in the shop and 2 in the office. we are so overwhelmed that I have to turn away approximately 20 % of the work that comes to my door. My lack of better managing abilities is the major road block to expanding the business more. I'm also getting a little burnt out and looking to spend more time on my own projects that have been a lower priority for decades. Much of our work is for other shops and pricing is wholesale, not retail. Profits are harder to come by than I wished, but my family still makes a decent living doing what we love to do. In my little part of this world there is more head porting going on than ever and no end in sight. Yes, most of the porting is with our CNC machine, but plenty of hand prototype work and minor fluff up jobs for street guys. I am starting to look into using CFD to help make our products better. The bar gets raised every year so we can't get lazy and rely solely on ideas that worked in past.

[lolturbos]

I’am 66 and I had to get into porting and learn and research about how to properly do what’s needed because for my brand of favorite motor there where no aftermarket heads for too long of a time and the best factory high performance heads of the time where still no match for even a BBC oval port head !

The big sad question I have ( and that I don’t know if I really want the answer to ) is how much longer do you think racing internal combustion engines will be allowed to be around for, as in being allowed by the one world order of government that’s gaining on us?

Elon Musk is the one who could wipe out the performance industry..........all the investing he is doing, he could just buy out the performance industry one by one.......and then there is no performace parts.

It's scary, but that's the hard truth.

So we just got to get out there and have our racing fun while we can with the combustion engine.

No that's all nonsense. I say that with respect.

Chemical energy is far too potent to just get brushed aside. This is the thinking that will kill the combustion engine, like a dodo bird, not eLoN MuSk


Look, combustion engines need to evolve. There's more left on the table. I would like to do just that with my life, help these things evolve. But that evolution won't come when people already pre-emptively give up on the idea.

There's a lot more left in combustion based engines, and batteries have a very very long way to go before they have super capacitor solid state type capabilities.

Currently the chinese are whooping our asses in that field of advancing the combustion engine.

[lolturbos]

A while back, I was talking to a very successful, retired, engine machine shop owner when I said, to some extent I port all of the heads for every engine I build.

His reply was, "I was never that slow". Really hit home and made me think about the direction of my shop.

Jerry,

Please don't forget, this is your life to live. Think of yourself down the road. Will it mean more to you that you continued to take pride in your work, and do it to your ideals? Or to have made maybe a bit more, or even a lot more.

If you get the right people involved, that pride will be most of your marketing, and that can more than help make up the return difference between getting it done his way and your way. I think engine shops are the most technologically lacking out of everywhere, in marketing. And that isn't just slapping a logo on some videos, and making clickbait titles for the big sites. It's sharing your genuine perspective, pride, and talent with the world that will resonate.