Future of head porting

[digger]

Why do you think it is that people with these skills loose EMC events to guys that know little to nothing about these technologies and the ones that have used them openly discredit them?

The people with those skills and tools develop the OEM parts that make late model engines vastly superior.

Many of the modern OEM parts are so well developed that the performance after market can't improve on them without changing the criteria by which they are judged.

"All" OEM parts are improved by the aftermarket which shows they are not "superior", so I will ask again, How do people without those skill best those who think they are superior?
There is an actual and obvious answer to this question.
It seems you guys would be better off learning why instead of just assuming you are "superior"... Just Saying!

It should be fairly obvious that OEM are not trying to achieve the same results as what the aftermarket is. Quite different priorities.

[hoodeng]

Unless you are talking about Dodge, for off the floor an SRT Demon is a pretty good crack from a manufacturer, yes people have even lifted the hp figures over the factory number...But lets not forget the rule of getting things into production and not sitting in the development phase forever.

Cheers

[digger]

Unless you are talking about Dodge, for off the floor an SRT Demon is a pretty good crack from a manufacturer, yes people have even lifted the hp figures over the factory number...But lets not forget the rule of getting things into production and not sitting in the development phase forever.

Cheers

you just kinda contradicted yourself, it's not even remotely maximised. you really don't think people who developed the thing from scratch could have figured out to put a smaller pulley, a better designed exhaust, change the numbers on the ECU computer until the dyno number stops going up ? None of it comes for free in terms of $$$, or compliance, assembly time, development time or reliability and other measures that hamstrings the OE

[hoodeng]

My response was directed to the statement "It should be fairly obvious that OEM are not trying to achieve the same results as what the aftermarket is. Quite different priorities.

I thought it was a pretty good effort from Dodge [as one example] considering a main stream manufacturers obligations and production considerations [ i can not quote what compliance's they were under to release it]. And yes a number of people have squeezed a whole lot more out of it than it came out with, that does not diminish Dodge's effort to give them something pretty good to start with.

This is supported by my previous post statement of '
"My reason for saying this is that [for cylinder heads in this instance] there will always be someone that will squeeze out more from something that has been made by a manufacturer for a given combination"

As for what can be squeezed out of a factory fitted engine, look at my YouTube link in a previous post.

Cheers.

[digger]

My response was directed to the statement "It should be fairly obvious that OEM are not trying to achieve the same results as what the aftermarket is. Quite different priorities.

I thought it was a pretty good effort from Dodge [as one example] considering a main stream manufacturers obligations and production considerations [ i can not quote what compliance's they were under to release it]. And yes a number of people have squeezed a whole lot more out of it than it came out with, that does not diminish Dodge's effort to give them something pretty good to start with.

This is supported by my previous post statement of '
"My reason for saying this is that [for cylinder heads in this instance] there will always be someone that will squeeze out more from something that has been made by a manufacturer for a given combination"

As for what can be squeezed out of a factory fitted engine, look at my YouTube link in a previous post.

Cheers.

of course a good effort but they weren't trying to maximise output to the point that it would compromise a whole load of other stuff. Whereas the aftermarket guy can modify it with much more freedom.

[hoodeng]

Lordy muma yea! Twist it till it breaks, then back the next one off eight of a turn!

Have been guilty of tipping the can in the past myself.

Cheers.

[RevTheory]

I've held off on posting in this thread for obvious reasons and I can clearly see both sides of the argument but Darin Morgan said in an interview that there's no way a port can be optimized on a computer the way an experienced cylinder head guy can with a flow bench.

He's got tons of experience with both so I trust his judgement.

A good friend made the point years ago and I think it may apply here: it's like the guy that talks to a dozen cam companies and buys the one that was closest to what he was already thinking. You can make a program optimize what you're already thinking, too.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

I've held off on posting in this thread for obvious reasons and I can clearly see both sides of the argument but Darin Morgan said in an interview that there's no way a port can be optimized on a computer the way an experienced cylinder head guy can with a flow bench.

He's got tons of experience with both so I trust his judgement.

A good friend made the point years ago and I think it may apply here: it's like the guy that talks to a dozen cam companies and buys the one that was closest to what he was already thinking. You can make a program optimize what you're already thinking, too.

I have done modeling for Darin, I wonder if he has actually used a high end CFD application. I don't think RM had one.
I think if he did, he would find a lot there.
People used to tell me all the things that CAD/CAM/CAE could not do (mostly because they didn't want to learn or invest in them). Today they use those technologies.

Your comment "You can make a program optimize what you're already thinking, too." is mistaken. It doesn't work that way.
Think of it like a volt meter with graphical 3D output. Most apps just return a result.
There are some apps that generate shapes but it is a huge set of work to define the constraints.

[Ken_Parkman]

One question I have been wondering is what type of CFD do you use, 2 phase flow or single. I was not under the impression that 2 phase is sufficiently advanced yet, at least anything I have been involved in is not. However it is clear there is lots to learn, and it is not intuitive.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

One question I have been wondering is what type of CFD do you use, 2 phase flow or single. I was not under the impression that 2 phase is sufficiently advanced yet, at least anything I have been involved in is not. However it is clear there is lots to learn, and it is not intuitive.

Single phase.

[GARY C]

The people with those skills and tools develop the OEM parts that make late model engines vastly superior.

Many of the modern OEM parts are so well developed that the performance after market can't improve on them without changing the criteria by which they are judged.

"All" OEM parts are improved by the aftermarket which shows they are not "superior", so I will ask again, How do people without those skill best those who think they are superior?
There is an actual and obvious answer to this question.
It seems you guys would be better off learning why instead of just assuming you are "superior"... Just Saying!

It should be fairly obvious that OEM are not trying to achieve the same results as what the aftermarket is. Quite different priorities.

True but the aftermarket has shown to be able to improve power, fuel efficiency and still meet or exceed emissions... The OEM is only trying to achieve what they need to get a product to market.

[GARY C]

"All" OEM parts are improved by the aftermarket which shows they are not "superior", so I will ask again, How do people without those skill best those who think they are superior?
There is an actual and obvious answer to this question.
It seems you guys would be better off learning why instead of just assuming you are "superior"... Just Saying!

I worked in the after market designing parts, for a company that was there pre and post CAD and CAE have you?
The parts made after CAD and CAE became involved are much better.

Generally the after market has to change the criteria for what good is to make an improvement.
That criteria will typically allow for higher RPM, higher cost, higher emissions, less smoothness.

Another way that you can look at it is to compare the performance, including emissions, fuel economy, longevity, smoothness, reliability of the engines developed before CAD and CAE vs after CAD and CAE. The modern engines are much better, thanks to CAD and CAE.

You are deluding yourself if you think that less information and less precision is somehow an advantage.

If you would do the work to understand how they work, I am sure that you would agree.

I never said anything about less information...

[GARY C]

The people with those skills and tools develop the OEM parts that make late model engines vastly superior.

Many of the modern OEM parts are so well developed that the performance after market can't improve on them without changing the criteria by which they are judged.

"All" OEM parts are improved by the aftermarket which shows they are not "superior", so I will ask again, How do people without those skill best those who think they are superior?
There is an actual and obvious answer to this question.
It seems you guys would be better off learning why instead of just assuming you are "superior"... Just Saying!

Hi Gary, not sure what to read in what you have written? are you saying the OEM is as good as it gets, or are you saying some people are overselling what they can achieve with OEM to start with?

There was a book written in 1944 at the peak of WW2 by a guy called W.J.King, it is called "The Unwritten Laws Of Engineering" basically what it is for was the heard of graduate engineers that were coming into mainstream wartime production [who had an unrealistic gauge of their merit], it was also written as a reminder to those in design and development that things had to be done expediently.. The expedience part was for obvious reasons in that era, what King was reminding them of was that they could develop the hell out of something and make it perfect,, the reality was that as soon as it was practical it had to go into production asap to aid the effort. Improvements would come later.Some failed even with development, but they had a go anyway.

Since then we have operated under the same principals,,in that, a manufacturer has to get kit off the drawing board and into production, it has to meet specification for the item being produced or imminently released, improvements come later.

My reason for saying this is that [for cylinder heads in this instance] there will always be someone that will squeeze out more from something that has been made by a manufacturer for a given combination, they may be tweaking seemingly minor areas but get a measurable improvement over even the performance model from a manufacturer,, was the manufacturer misleading in saying his was the best of the bunch? no, he had to get his kit into production and on the showroom floor.

The only place that really amazes me is Formula 1, for every rule that has been written someone will kick a goal from an impossible position on the field. Yes, spastic money goes into what they do, is it the car? the engine? the driver? there are a few winning that know the formula for today, tomorrow another team will pull something out of the bag that will stun the others, that's the story of this sphere of sport.[even though some think this sport is boring as bat shit, i love it!].

Years back i got to see some of the support a company called 'Ricardo PLC' were giving in induction design,,,stunning, beyond my comprehension but it sowed seeds of thought of what to look at, a D Morgan seminar sailed close to some of the theory as well.

We can all learn all the time,, unless we already think we know enough.

Cheers.

In short what I am saying is that the thought that the OEM and people that swear by said programs are some how superior clearly discount the aftermarket and in many cases the achievements of no name engine builders that prove my point.

Your F1 example is a good one, all though extreme these days, but if one has studied the history of F1 or NASCAR advancement you see the fact of what the race world has brought to the production car via real world R&D, not the other way around.

My fear is that (superiority thinking) about modern programs will hinder the future of critical thinking in the automotive world just like social media has hindered critical thinking about everyday life.

Look at the studies of reduced brain activity with something as simple as GPS.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

My fear is that (superiority thinking) about modern programs will hinder the future of critical thinking in the automotive world just like social media has hindered critical thinking about everyday life.

Look at the studies of reduced brain activity with something as simple as GPS.

I think you may have a fundamental misunderstanding of how CFD works and what it does.

Do you think that the program tells you what to do or designs it for you?

Can you explain what you think it does and how that would "hinder critical thinking"?

[digger]

"All" OEM parts are improved by the aftermarket which shows they are not "superior", so I will ask again, How do people without those skill best those who think they are superior?
There is an actual and obvious answer to this question.
It seems you guys would be better off learning why instead of just assuming you are "superior"... Just Saying!

It should be fairly obvious that OEM are not trying to achieve the same results as what the aftermarket is. Quite different priorities.

True but the aftermarket has shown to be able to improve power, fuel efficiency and still meet or exceed emissions... The OEM is only trying to achieve what they need to get a product to market.

those are not the only requirements though, time, cost, impact on mass product assembly and so on. They would have power goals in mind so if they meet that then they are happy whether or not there is free 5% left on the table. That way they can charge a premium on the performance version or leave themselves room in the marketing material how the next version makes an extra 10hp.