Future of head porting

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

SchmidtMotorWorks
Vendor
Posts: 11003
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:30 am
Location: CA

Re: Future of head porting

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks »

RevTheory wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:37 am I've seen these types of arguments play out probably hundreds of times. I'm pretty sure that the guy who's been behind a flowbench for 30 years and was really good at it won't listen to a guy with an expensive computer program and vise-versa.

A brand new engine platform, absolutely! Something already known that needs to be optimized for an application, give me a guy who's really good with a bench and probe.

Either way, the wheels on this particular bus will continue to go round and round.
A probe doesn't provide nearly as much info to base decisions on as a CFD plot.
Using a CFD plot shows you things that you may not be looking for.
Helping to Deliver the Promise of Flying Cars
SchmidtMotorWorks
Vendor
Posts: 11003
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:30 am
Location: CA

Re: Future of head porting

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks »

GARY C wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:32 pm I do understand it and know it does nothing for designing a port beyond what one could do with a homemade flowbench and velocity probe and that is my point.

How it hinders critical thinking is that some people thinks it makes them superior to others, so they fail to do and learn the necessary R&D on the dyno, track and street to produce the best product.
The more you post, the more I think you don't understand.
Air following a piston is much different than air flowing into a bottomless hole.
Air flows at higher depressions than even high-end flow benches provide.
A flow bench and probes do not provide as much information as CFD.
You can't probe a chamber and piston.
There are numerous measurements that a probe cannot detect.

More information is superior to less information.
Helping to Deliver the Promise of Flying Cars
hoffman900
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 3445
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:42 pm
Location:

Re: Future of head porting

Post by hoffman900 »

SchmidtMotorWorks wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:40 pm
hoffman900 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:50 am Gary, you’ve been told this multiple times before by myself and others, but that is not how it works or what happens.

If you want to learn how Hendrick does it, watch this:
https://www.engineering.com/story/live- ... technology
That is an excellent video.

I worked at Siemens for 22 years developing the software that Hendrick Motorsport uses.
I spent the first12 years developing methods to model the shapes and much of the rest developing applications to model specific things with automation.
When I started in 1997, there were about 400 working on it, today there are more than 10,000 people adding to it.
It is nice to see that the projects that were funded by aerospace, military and automotive OEM are used in motorsport.

One of the impressive things about that video is how much Hall knew about the details, that is unusual for someone in executive management.

There was a point made at somewhere about 0.4 of the way through about "Tube Milling" that relates to the future of porting.
As he said, now it is possible to program a head in a 2-3 hours.
I found it interesting they brought piston design in house, but it makes A LOT of sense.
-Bob
David Redszus
Guru
Guru
Posts: 9633
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Re: Future of head porting

Post by David Redszus »

Over the week end I had the chance to discuss a science matter.
It involved using a CAD program to design a complex snowflake crystal arm and then
replicated into a three dimensional snowflake.

Next the file was run through a 3D printer to produce a 5", three dimensional snowflake that could
be held in my hand.

Not a big deal? True.
Except for the fact that it was done by my 10 year old grand daughter in school.

If little kids can use this kind of technology, what is our excuse?

I may have her produce a log plenum for the BMW race car. :)
KnightEngines
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2682
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:51 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Future of head porting

Post by KnightEngines »

Max effort porting on OEM castings is something that cannot be done by cnc.
Cnc cannot see the core shift & adjust each port to stay out of the water jacket, a machine can't hear/feel a random thin section & decide that one can be a little smaller.
hoodeng
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 1092
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:53 pm
Location: South Australia

Re: Future of head porting

Post by hoodeng »

KnightEngines wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:03 pm Max effort porting on OEM castings is something that cannot be done by cnc.
Cnc cannot see the core shift & adjust each port to stay out of the water jacket, a machine can't hear/feel a random thin section & decide that one can be a little smaller.
Not a 100% sure on that KE. This comes from two perspectives, one, porting OEM castings to a level that is economic for the casting [not eking out the last possible potential at a cost that makes it uneconomic against a performance casting or complete product] then scanning and digitizing the port, then running that as the NC program to port other OEM heads of the same casting can be economic. It can also get to a point where the cost of the CNC work exceeds the cost of doing it by hand, this is a decision we can make when presented with this. I have been there.

The other is [with the product i work on] the manufacturer produces a performance cylinder head with cast ports, these work quite well out of the box, but with the demand for more power from the same engine, the next level is to optimize the already supplied cylinder head,, so,, the manufacturer optimizes the port, digitizes it and puts this into a NC program and cuts the port.
What happened in earlier versions of the NC ported head was that all areas of the port did not have tool paths over them and had areas that were left cast. As we know the parts not cut were already out of cutters way that is, big enough already, running your finger over these areas showed they were not out by much at all. Next iteration from the manufacturer came with tool paths over the entire port, a measurement check showed they did not increase the CSA's but cast the port smaller in production so that there would be complete tool path coverage. My point is that the customers bitched their so called CNC head was not done properly in the early head as the tool paths had gaps, the later head was very popular as it looked sexy for no tangible gain, but with complete tool paths,woohoo!

The amount required smaller in the casting for this to occur? something like .5mm-1mm, the accuracy of casting design datum points to actual finished casting point location before machining these days is pretty good. It is a while since i have seen this manufacturer have head core shift variance of 1mm.

As you had correctly pointed out, breaking through is a consideration as well, but if we have been having a crack at the same component over years we identify where material can be removed and where it has to be left behind to insure integrity.

A while back a person took a finished exhaust port i did to task as not being optimized, he correctly identified areas that i could have easily picked up flow, what he didn't know is that this head can suffer loosening valve guides when excessive heat soak is experienced [ high ambient temp, high load, long distance touring air cooled] , so keeping enough supportive material around the guide boss is imperative, not the flow gain by removing it, and as you pointed out, you can't keep cutting, you will find air.



Cheers.
SchmidtMotorWorks
Vendor
Posts: 11003
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:30 am
Location: CA

Re: Future of head porting

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks »

KnightEngines wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:03 pm Max effort porting on OEM castings is something that cannot be done by cnc.
Cnc cannot see the core shift & adjust each port to stay out of the water jacket, a machine can't hear/feel a random thin section & decide that one can be a little smaller.
Generally all of the intake or exhaust ports are formed by one core, there is no individual offset.
Water cores have openings on the deck that you can measure as well.
It is not difficult to make a program that allows you to measure some points on the casting and offset to compensate.
Helping to Deliver the Promise of Flying Cars
F-BIRD'88
Guru
Guru
Posts: 9802
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:56 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Future of head porting

Post by F-BIRD'88 »

SchmidtMotorWorks wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:31 pm
KnightEngines wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:03 pm Max effort porting on OEM castings is something that cannot be done by cnc.
Cnc cannot see the core shift & adjust each port to stay out of the water jacket, a machine can't hear/feel a random thin section & decide that one can be a little smaller.
Generally all of the intake or exhaust ports are formed by one core, there is no individual offset.
Water cores have openings on the deck that you can measure as well.
It is not difficult to make a program that allows you to measure some points on the casting and offset to compensate.
The trouble is the core shift is different on every oem casting... You'd need to write a unique offset for each port, on each head you do...
Not production cost effective..

But there are some basic porting rough cuts you could employ CNC machining on ports to speed up the hand porting process, to increase production and save on human hand fatigue.
Last edited by F-BIRD'88 on Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
hoffman900
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 3445
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:42 pm
Location:

Re: Future of head porting

Post by hoffman900 »

F-BIRD'88 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:52 am
SchmidtMotorWorks wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:31 pm
KnightEngines wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:03 pm Max effort porting on OEM castings is something that cannot be done by cnc.
Cnc cannot see the core shift & adjust each port to stay out of the water jacket, a machine can't hear/feel a random thin section & decide that one can be a little smaller.
Generally all of the intake or exhaust ports are formed by one core, there is no individual offset.
Water cores have openings on the deck that you can measure as well.
It is not difficult to make a program that allows you to measure some points on the casting and offset to compensate.
The trouble is the core shift is different on every oem casting... You'd need to write a unique offset for each port, on each head you do...
Not production cost effective..
Jon literally designed some of the cores in these aftermarket castings. I think he knows what he’s talking about...
-Bob
SchmidtMotorWorks
Vendor
Posts: 11003
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:30 am
Location: CA

Re: Future of head porting

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks »

F-BIRD'88 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:52 am The trouble is the core shift is different on every oem casting... You'd need to write a unique offset for each port, on each head you do...
Not production cost effective..

But there are some basic porting rough cuts you could employ CNC machining on ports to speed up the hand porting process, to increase production and save on human hand fatigue.
It isn't complicated, all that you have to do is make a qualifying program that picks up a few key points on cast ports and the same on the water core openings.

Offset the ports accordingly, postprocess and push the start button.

This is why it is important to use an integrated parametric CAD/CAM software.
Less expensive software that do not have this capability are false economy.
Helping to Deliver the Promise of Flying Cars
SpeierRacingHeads
Vendor
Posts: 937
Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 1:28 pm
Location: KS
Contact:

Re: Future of head porting

Post by SpeierRacingHeads »

After keeping up with this thread, I've come to a conclusion.

Find another profession.

The old school way can't possibly work.

Any you haven't got enough money to buy what you need to be successful.

Become a doctor.
Speier Racing Heads
Chad Speier
785-623-0963
SchmidtMotorWorks
Vendor
Posts: 11003
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:30 am
Location: CA

Re: Future of head porting

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks »

SpeierRacingHeads wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:56 pm After keeping up with this thread, I've come to a conclusion.

Find another profession.

The old school way can't possibly work.

Any you haven't got enough money to buy what you need to be successful.

Become a doctor.
That is very good advice for a young person, specifically a specialist surgeon.
Few things are more rewarding than solving peoples health problems, nothing more important.
Helping to Deliver the Promise of Flying Cars
David Redszus
Guru
Guru
Posts: 9633
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Re: Future of head porting

Post by David Redszus »

Few things are more rewarding than solving peoples health problems, nothing more important.

I would agree if that includes mental health.
GARY C
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 6301
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 10:58 pm
Location:

Re: Future of head porting

Post by GARY C »

SchmidtMotorWorks wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:46 pm
GARY C wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:32 pm I do understand it and know it does nothing for designing a port beyond what one could do with a homemade flowbench and velocity probe and that is my point.

How it hinders critical thinking is that some people thinks it makes them superior to others, so they fail to do and learn the necessary R&D on the dyno, track and street to produce the best product.
The more you post, the more I think you don't understand.
Air following a piston is much different than air flowing into a bottomless hole.
Air flows at higher depressions than even high-end flow benches provide.
A flow bench and probes do not provide as much information as CFD.
You can't probe a chamber and piston.
There are numerous measurements that a probe cannot detect.

More information is superior to less information.
I do understand and I agree with more information, I just disagree with the information that you feel is superior for the reasons I have asked but never got an answer to.
Please Note!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!
GARY C
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 6301
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 10:58 pm
Location:

Re: Future of head porting

Post by GARY C »

David Redszus wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:27 pm
Few things are more rewarding than solving peoples health problems, nothing more important.

I would agree if that includes mental health.
http://www.webdc.com/pdfs/deathbymedicine.pdf
Please Note!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!
Locked