Custom carb or EFI

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hoffman900
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Re: Custom carb or EFI

Post by hoffman900 »

Orr89rocz wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:51 am
David Redszus wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:37 am
Get the AFR in the same ballpark the Inlet air temp due to evaporative cooling is better with the carb even compared to throttle body injection. Its enough to overcome the loss of airflow required to get a carb responsive
Maybe not. Throttle body injection is only better than a carb due to mixture ratio control over the entire range of operation (a function of the ECU). It is an obsolete (but cheap) system except for trucks.

For a typical engine using isooctane, 100F deg air and fuel, 85% evaporation, the temperature drop
due to fuel evaporation will be 25.6F deg, resulting in an increase in charge density of 1.36%.

But the reduction in inlet air mass due to fuel vapor displacement would be 9%; a net loss in air mass.

One reason that port EFI could make more power is a result of more even fuel distribution to
reduce cycle to cycle and cylinder to cylinder variations.

But there is a dark side as well. NASCAR dumped carburetors a decade ago in order to reduce the number of engine failures, which it did. But it also allowed NASCAR to dial in the maximum speeds that can be driven because cars were getting too fast for the tracks.

No modern race engine would use carburetors unless the rules required them. And some do.
Most dyno tests of typical engine combos guys use, comparing a decent tuned carb to a decent tuned efi system, carbs have made more peak power and yes it is most likely due to cooling of intake charge. Its been pretty well displayed in many tests. Sometimes its very close. Port efi usually makes alittle more average power in other areas off peaks. Richard Holdener and even Steve Morris have done videos on the tests
Do you think EFI can’t do that and more?

EFI tuners have understood this for decades, hence dual rows of injectors and also the raising of fuel rail pressure. Honda’s Formula 1 team measured wave speed in the intake tract to measure the cooling effect of the fuel evaporation and were able to tune that. You can’t do that with a carburetor... there is a ton of raw fuel floating around.

Dual rows give you the driveability of a Honda Civic while still being able to make the big power upstairs. A carburetor it’s an either or situation and you’re not as constrained with packaging EFI and having to worry about a skyscraper coming out of your hood. Carburetors to package also have chassis and aero implications, gravity matters a lot more with them.

Again, most everyone puts injectors in the runner of a carbureted manifold (be it a tunnel ram or whatever), moving the fuel source much closer to the valve, and wonders why there isn’t as much evaporative cooling.
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Re: Custom carb or EFI

Post by Orr89rocz »

hoffman900 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:29 am
Orr89rocz wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:51 am
David Redszus wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:37 am

Maybe not. Throttle body injection is only better than a carb due to mixture ratio control over the entire range of operation (a function of the ECU). It is an obsolete (but cheap) system except for trucks.

For a typical engine using isooctane, 100F deg air and fuel, 85% evaporation, the temperature drop
due to fuel evaporation will be 25.6F deg, resulting in an increase in charge density of 1.36%.

But the reduction in inlet air mass due to fuel vapor displacement would be 9%; a net loss in air mass.

One reason that port EFI could make more power is a result of more even fuel distribution to
reduce cycle to cycle and cylinder to cylinder variations.

But there is a dark side as well. NASCAR dumped carburetors a decade ago in order to reduce the number of engine failures, which it did. But it also allowed NASCAR to dial in the maximum speeds that can be driven because cars were getting too fast for the tracks.

No modern race engine would use carburetors unless the rules required them. And some do.
Most dyno tests of typical engine combos guys use, comparing a decent tuned carb to a decent tuned efi system, carbs have made more peak power and yes it is most likely due to cooling of intake charge. Its been pretty well displayed in many tests. Sometimes its very close. Port efi usually makes alittle more average power in other areas off peaks. Richard Holdener and even Steve Morris have done videos on the tests
Do you think EFI can’t do that and more?

EFI tuners have understood this for decades, hence dual rows of injectors and also the raising of fuel rail pressure. Honda’s Formula 1 team measured wave speed in the intake tract to measure the cooling effect of the fuel evaporation and were able to tune that. You can’t do that with a carburetor... there is a ton of raw fuel floating around.

Dual rows give you the driveability of a Honda Civic while still being able to make the big power upstairs. A carburetor it’s an either or situation and you’re not as constrained with packaging EFI and having to worry about a skyscraper coming out of your hood. Carburetors to package also have chassis and aero implications, gravity matters a lot more with them.

Again, most everyone puts injectors in the runner of a carbureted manifold (be it a tunnel ram or whatever), moving the fuel source much closer to the valve, and wonders why there isn’t as much evaporative cooling.
Where did i say anything like that?

Key word...typical engine combos guys use. That would be your single plane efi intake with one injector low on the runner or a tbi type injection. Some guys may use a box plenum type mpfi intake like miniram, ram jet, edelbrock pro flo, tuned port, holley stealth ram, etc

When comparing basic efi systems with intakes like these carbs usually outpower them in peak numbers. Thats all i have said. Might not be always but there definitely is something to the carb atomization/evaporation of fuel cooling effect.

Average john doe isnt going to spend F1 budget money for shower injector sets and individual cyl timing/fuel control on their 400-600 hp car. Hell even boosted guys arent going that far
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Re: Custom carb or EFI

Post by hoffman900 »

You don’t have to spend F1 money to do it. People cobble these together all the time. Brackets, injectors, fuel rail, done. If you can tune an engine very well on EFI, you can figure out the tuning on that.

My point is people move the injector 4-6” closer to the valve as compared to a carburetor and then wonder why the injectors have less evaporative cooling in those situations.

Why are we always reverting back to street rod / bracket engines here? It’s Speedtalk, not Friday Night Oldies Cruise talk. Whenever anyone wants to talk high level about making power, all anyone wants to do to shoot down the topic “well, the typical hot rodder / bracket racer / etc doesn’t need to know that”.

I come back to this site out of habit after 15 years, and I’ve learned a lot, but man has this place has turned into a stick in the mud. A few very smart people I talk to regularly offline here, but have met via this site, agree.
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Re: Custom carb or EFI

Post by Orr89rocz »

hoffman900 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:57 am You don’t have to spend F1 money to do it. People cobble these together all the time. Brackets, injectors, fuel rail, done. If you can tune an engine very well on EFI, you can figure out the tuning on that.

My point is people move the injector 4-6” closer to the valve as compared to a carburetor and then wonder why the injectors have less evaporative cooling in those situations.

Why are we always reverting back to street rod / bracket engines here? It’s Speedtalk, not Friday Night Oldies Cruise talk. Whenever anyone wants to talk high level about making power, all anyone wants to do to shoot down the topic “well, the typical hot rodder / bracket racer / etc doesn’t need to know that”.

I come back to this site out of habit after 15 years, and I’ve learned a lot, but man has this place has turned into a stick in the mud. A few very smart people I talk to regularly offline here, but have met via this site, agree.
Did you not read the thread? Do you not understand context? The OP guy is looking at a sniper system which is a basic efi system. Coming from what sounds like a basic common 750 carb. Sounded to me like your average hotrod enthusiast looking for alittle bit of improvement to his motor and not looking to get wild and crazy with complications. Maybe im wrong.
The argument ensued about power a carb makes compared to typical efi systems with regards to fuel delivery and cooling effect. I simply offered more supporting evidence of that being true it a lot of applications and you can reference vids done by the gentlemen i listed

If you wanna go into an advanced topic about max effort efi vs best carb designs, i’m game. I’ll agree at that point efi should have the advantage in what can be done. But thats not what this thread is about. I am fully aware of all the things you mentioned for efi to make power

Fyi i never held a carb in my hand. I’m an efi guy and tune my own
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Re: Custom carb or EFI

Post by Tuner »

Orr89rocz wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:51 am
David Redszus wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:37 am
Get the AFR in the same ballpark the Inlet air temp due to evaporative cooling is better with the carb even compared to throttle body injection. Its enough to overcome the loss of airflow required to get a carb responsive
Maybe not. Throttle body injection is only better than a carb due to mixture ratio control over the entire range of operation (a function of the ECU). It is an obsolete (but cheap) system except for trucks.

For a typical engine using isooctane, 100F deg air and fuel, 85% evaporation, the temperature drop
due to fuel evaporation will be 25.6F deg, resulting in an increase in charge density of 1.36%.

But the reduction in inlet air mass due to fuel vapor displacement would be 9%; a net loss in air mass.

One reason that port EFI could make more power is a result of more even fuel distribution to
reduce cycle to cycle and cylinder to cylinder variations.

But there is a dark side as well. NASCAR dumped carburetors a decade ago in order to reduce the number of engine failures, which it did. But it also allowed NASCAR to dial in the maximum speeds that can be driven because cars were getting too fast for the tracks.

No modern race engine would use carburetors unless the rules required them. And some do.
Most dyno tests of typical engine combos guys use, comparing a decent tuned carb to a decent tuned efi system, carbs have made more peak power and yes it is most likely due to cooling of intake charge. Its been pretty well displayed in many tests. Sometimes its very close. Port efi usually makes alittle more average power in other areas off peaks. Richard Holdener and even Steve Morris have done videos on the tests
LOL EFI guys always have an excuse for why carbs make more power. "manifold bla" "injector location bla" "etc. bla"

If a carb setup was weak in the midrange in a back-to-back test with EFI it was calibrated improperly and merely jetted for peak power and the A/F was not ideal at lower RPM, which is a symptom of the wrong "emulsion package" or mismatched main vs. idle jet combination. Peak power is easy, correct A/F over a wide power band oftentimes needs more attention.


The OP needs to understand that whatever decision he makes, carb or EFI, he will need to apply some sweat equity to have a good running engine. Even the "self learning" EFIs need some encouragement and some never learn because they can't or won't adapt to a particular engine combination.

OP, if you decide to go with EFI be sure it can be adjusted with a laptop so you or someone can educate it if it won't do its homework.
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Re: Custom carb or EFI

Post by steve cowan »

A friend of mine fought with a FITECH set up on his supercharged 6 cylinder for 2 years then binned it,numerous chassis dyno sessions and track time ,the thing was a dog.
Got a custom 650 blow through carb and went back to his 6AL programmable ignition, makes more power than ever he is really happy.
I still question how these things self learn.
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Re: Custom carb or EFI

Post by Orr89rocz »

steve cowan wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:11 pm A friend of mine fought with a FITECH set up on his supercharged 6 cylinder for 2 years then binned it,numerous chassis dyno sessions and track time ,the thing was a dog.
Got a custom 650 blow through carb and went back to his 6AL programmable ignition, makes more power than ever he is really happy.
I still question how these things self learn.
On the simple tbi types im not sure but it may follow similar logic on the holley hp efi stuff. There is closed loop wideband correction. There is a table where you input desired air fuel ratio. Usually 14-15 afr for light load cruise idle etc. At 80-100 kpa or 3/4 to wot throttle, generally 12.5-13.0 afr. The wideband o2 sensor reads this and makes adjustments to a commanded fuel value. The problem is the commanded fuel value has to be reasonably close so the correction can do its thing in a timely manner. Normally you dont want it correcting more than 5-6% imo. But holley has capabilities to adjust 300%. Its nice because you can basically throw any map in it and as long as it starts to putt and create combustion, it will tell you what direction fueling needs to go. In reality its not a set and forget. You have to adjust base fueling and set the parameters for +\- range of adjustment.
The learn feature will work with the closed loop correction Feature to make the changes to base fuel table map. It will log data and see how much correction is being applied to closed loop and then make that % adjustment to the fuel table, which should eventually make your fuel table pretty nice and limit how much correction the wideband has to do.
It does work nice, very good for getting you up and running. Quickly dial in a map. From there you desensitize the correction control so it doesnt make larger adjustments and do it quickly. Closer the fuel map gets to being spot on the less Aggressive you want learn mode and closed loop correction to Be
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Re: Custom carb or EFI

Post by olescarb »

The problem is the commanded fuel value has to be reasonably close so the correction can do its thing in a timely manner. Normally you dont want it correcting more than 5-6% imo.
[/quote]

I think you are spot on on the 5-6% maximum correction factor for any computer controlled high performance engine package, anything more than that can create tuning problems as the computer tries to correct the air/fuel mixture. You should also consider that a wideband o2 sensor can provide false lean a/f mixture readings from anything that exposes the sensor to extra oxygen in the exhaust such as engine misfire (too lean or rich a/f mixtures, incorrect ignition timing, the blow thru effect caused by a turbocharger or supercharger, the valve overlap of a high performance cam). If the readings from a 5-gas exhaust gas analyzer agree with the data from a wideband o2 sensor i would trust the a/f mixture data from the wideband sensor but if they do not match ......

Henry @ oles carb
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Re: Custom carb or EFI

Post by rebelrouser »

steve cowan wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:11 pm A friend of mine fought with a FITECH set up on his supercharged 6 cylinder for 2 years then binned it,numerous chassis dyno sessions and track time ,the thing was a dog.
Got a custom 650 blow through carb and went back to his 6AL programmable ignition, makes more power than ever he is really happy.
I still question how these things self learn.
I have only done one fitech and it is my personal car. A 410 small block mopar with a procharger in a 69 cuda. I tried a blow through carb first on the dyno, made decent power at wot but the idle was terrible rich. Bought the Fitech system, mainly for timing control as I drive it on the street with pump gas. First the tech guys at fitech know very little about OEM electronic injection systems, and not much more about the one they are selling. Best I can tell the system is early 90's GM technology. All the sensors in the throttle body for example are GM and you can buy them across the counter at any parts store. I had a couple issues that once ironed out the system is very impressive. First issue I had was the system is very picky on fuel pressure, and the pressure regulator in the throttle body is from a Volkswagen, it does not have enough flow. As the pressure increases the amperage draw of the injector goes up, too much fuel pressure and the driver for the injector in the computer and it shuts down. The Fitech sets OEM style codes, which is great. the only thing is Fitech will not give you any info on the parameters that cause the codes to set. So as a technician used to fixing OEM injection systems, the lack of this kind of info kind of pissed me off. Any way I figured it out, I doubt many do it yourselfers could have done it. The other issue is the system is prone to EFI noise, and since the throttle body, and the ECM in the throttle body, is really close to the distributor, that is kind of a big issue. I covered the harness in a stainless sleeve, the cheap covering to make hoses look like braided line, and grounded it. Last time I had the car out it got 18 miles to the gallon, and it runs better now, but on the dyno it made almost 600hp with 6 lbs of boost. The car is fun to drive but with street tires it is like driving on ice sometimes, it gets loose very easy.
The main thing I would say is they sell them as plug and play, NOPE, you got to have some knowledge and piddle with them to get it to work.
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Re: Custom carb or EFI

Post by steve cowan »

rebelrouser wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:48 pm
steve cowan wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:11 pm A friend of mine fought with a FITECH set up on his supercharged 6 cylinder for 2 years then binned it,numerous chassis dyno sessions and track time ,the thing was a dog.
Got a custom 650 blow through carb and went back to his 6AL programmable ignition, makes more power than ever he is really happy.
I still question how these things self learn.
I have only done one fitech and it is my personal car. A 410 small block mopar with a procharger in a 69 cuda. I tried a blow through carb first on the dyno, made decent power at wot but the idle was terrible rich. Bought the Fitech system, mainly for timing control as I drive it on the street with pump gas. First the tech guys at fitech know very little about OEM electronic injection systems, and not much more about the one they are selling. Best I can tell the system is early 90's GM technology. All the sensors in the throttle body for example are GM and you can buy them across the counter at any parts store. I had a couple issues that once ironed out the system is very impressive. First issue I had was the system is very picky on fuel pressure, and the pressure regulator in the throttle body is from a Volkswagen, it does not have enough flow. As the pressure increases the amperage draw of the injector goes up, too much fuel pressure and the driver for the injector in the computer and it shuts down. The Fitech sets OEM style codes, which is great. the only thing is Fitech will not give you any info on the parameters that cause the codes to set. So as a technician used to fixing OEM injection systems, the lack of this kind of info kind of pissed me off. Any way I figured it out, I doubt many do it yourselfers could have done it. The other issue is the system is prone to EFI noise, and since the throttle body, and the ECM in the throttle body, is really close to the distributor, that is kind of a big issue. I covered the harness in a stainless sleeve, the cheap covering to make hoses look like braided line, and grounded it. Last time I had the car out it got 18 miles to the gallon, and it runs better now, but on the dyno it made almost 600hp with 6 lbs of boost. The car is fun to drive but with street tires it is like driving on ice sometimes, it gets loose very easy.
The main thing I would say is they sell them as plug and play, NOPE, you got to have some knowledge and piddle with them to get it to work.
Looks like a nice ride you have there,
Appreciate your feedback on the Fitech,I was not involved in his deal and in no way was I trying to rag on the system but from what you are explaining it took some work.
steve c
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Re: Custom carb or EFI

Post by prairiehotrodder »

The OP asked about custom carbs, i have used pro-systems carbs and had excellent results. They are hardly any more money than a similar carb from holley. I have never used aftermarket EFI but i see lots of guys using it and having problems. They usually buy it because they were having problems with their carbs before they purchased the EFI. That might tell you something.

I'm a drag racer who likes things sledge hammer simple so i like carbs. I think EFI just keeps getting better and i have considered putting a low buck holley system in my tow truck someday.

I think for boosted (blow-thru) applications, EFI would be advantageous.

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Re: Custom carb or EFI

Post by Tom68 »

Mike Laws wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:29 pm
c1500sbc wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:42 pm Has anyone used a custom carb company? If so, how were the results. I have a previous post on here about tuning in an Edelbrock 750. With y'alls help I got it mostly dialed in. I'm still not completely happy with it though. There are custom carb companies that claim to build a custom carb, built off a particular engine build, that yield 20-40 hp gains over a typical self tuned off the shelf carb. I got a quote from a company called Pro Systems carburetors for a really nice looking carb. Everything sounds great about the build, but i'm unsure of the actual gains from the "custom carb"

EFI is certainly an option, top choice would be a Holley sniper system, but they seem to be pretty glitchy and when people have an issue with them it seems to take weeks to get it rectified. I don't want my truck down that long. Carbs are much easier to get parts for and repair but it's certainly intriguing to put an EFI system on it.

Anyone have possible some opinions or even better, some dyno results of a custom carb?
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Re: Custom carb or EFI

Post by BLSTIC »

Orr89rocz wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:42 pm
steve cowan wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:11 pm A friend of mine fought with a FITECH set up on his supercharged 6 cylinder for 2 years then binned it,numerous chassis dyno sessions and track time ,the thing was a dog.
Got a custom 650 blow through carb and went back to his 6AL programmable ignition, makes more power than ever he is really happy.
I still question how these things self learn.
On the simple tbi types im not sure but it may follow similar logic on the holley hp efi stuff. There is closed loop wideband correction. There is a table where you input desired air fuel ratio. Usually 14-15 afr for light load cruise idle etc. At 80-100 kpa or 3/4 to wot throttle, generally 12.5-13.0 afr. The wideband o2 sensor reads this and makes adjustments to a commanded fuel value. The problem is the commanded fuel value has to be reasonably close so the correction can do its thing in a timely manner. Normally you dont want it correcting more than 5-6% imo. But holley has capabilities to adjust 300%. Its nice because you can basically throw any map in it and as long as it starts to putt and create combustion, it will tell you what direction fueling needs to go. In reality its not a set and forget. You have to adjust base fueling and set the parameters for +\- range of adjustment.
The learn feature will work with the closed loop correction Feature to make the changes to base fuel table map. It will log data and see how much correction is being applied to closed loop and then make that % adjustment to the fuel table, which should eventually make your fuel table pretty nice and limit how much correction the wideband has to do.
It does work nice, very good for getting you up and running. Quickly dial in a map. From there you desensitize the correction control so it doesnt make larger adjustments and do it quickly. Closer the fuel map gets to being spot on the less Aggressive you want learn mode and closed loop correction to Be
To add:

One thing I've noted is that self learning ECUs have a minimum of two maps, usually three. You have the base map which is read from under all conditions as the starting value, then you have either one or two trim maps (if two, short term and long term, with long term allowing for larger corrections).

The base map uses interpolation between exact RPM/Load values to give a very good approximation of what value should be required if the actual RPM/Load values are between programmed values (and the map is correct, of course)
The trim maps are not usually so lucky and are just records of +/- adjustments that occur in that RPM/Load grid and they may not even align with the base map RPM/Load points.

You might be in the same trim grid at 1800 and 2300rpm and if you spend more time at 1800rpm the trim map might be compensating for some base map error to make your 80km/h cruise sweet (say it's leaning out by 10% at that condition because the base map was too rich), but if the base map is too lean for 2200rpm and you're in the same -10% trim grid you're gonna have a bad time until it corrects itself the other way. Your base map might be good within 10% which won't cause any immediate driving problems, but because the trim map can adjust things that could be 20% if circumstances like my contrived example happen, and that *will* cause drivability problems. The kicker: Because learning takes time (there's usually a counter that multiplies time by value to convert from short term trim to long term trim) you might have a car that dynos fine and drives great on your test lap but a month of 80km/h cruise commutes later you notice it hesitate on the highway while the short term trims sort themselves out.

That's a more in depth reason why your self learning ecu shouldn't be given too much power...

Bonus tidbit, this can be abused for power in some vehicles like the WRX (that uses closed loop timing) where knock correction is stored as a single value. Find a spot where the ecu is listening hard for knock but it's not likely to actually knock (say 4000rpm, 3psi). Fill it with high octane, reset the ECU, load it up at that load point for a while. Enjoy your "high octane" timing map.
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Re: Custom carb or EFI

Post by KnightEngines »

A few months ago - 600hp 427 SBC on the dyno, started with a holley sniper, finished with a basic 850 quickfuel.
Carb was a solid 35hp better even though the fuel curve was not as consistent.
Better from the hit to past peak.

A week later a 300hp 202 holden 6, sniper quit when we were almost done, put a mismatched crusty old 650 carb on it (it was too big & had issues) & picked up 12hp.

Unless you're going to a $$$$ well developed EFI system a carb outright murders any basic "bolt on" EFI.
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Re: Custom carb or EFI

Post by steve cowan »

I see alot of people going back to carbs in last couple of years.
Maybe people prefer to hold a steering wheel compared to a laptop :D
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