13100 rpm fourbanger restricted to 9300 redline

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ptuomov
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Re: 13100 rpm fourbanger restricted to 9300 redline

Post by ptuomov »

Does anyone have the maps for the secondary throttle opening as a function rpm for a 10-15 year old GSX-R600? Even ballpark measurement from the resistance would be useful. I’m curious how much the factory wanted to bias the air flow and reduce the intake runner CSA at 7000-9300 rpm range.
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Re: 13100 rpm fourbanger restricted to 9300 redline

Post by ptuomov »

Can anyone tell the GSX-R600 engine model year from these codes? They’d have to remove the engine from the chassis to see the actual N7... engine numbers.
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Re: 13100 rpm fourbanger restricted to 9300 redline

Post by nitro2 »

ptuomov wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:59 am
nitro2 wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:18 pm The factory 4-2-1 has a positive pressure pulse in the exhaust port for most of the overlap period over the entire rpm range the OP is interested in. Couldn't be much worse.
The main change they did in the first round of changes was a new exhaust better suited for this rpm range and power level and the engine picked up almost 10% more 7000-9300 average hp.
That sounds about right. Modifying the intake should be worth at least that much more again.
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Re: 13100 rpm fourbanger restricted to 9300 redline

Post by ptuomov »

nitro2 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:01 am That sounds about right. Modifying the intake should be worth at least that much more again.
This was with longer trumpets inside the stock air box, in addition to modified exhaust.

The intake runner diameter is difficult to modify within the rules. The throttle body elements are short and full of throttles. The short section that couples the throttle bodies to the cylinder head is also very short and furthermore molded from rubber. The head can’t be modified and intake manifold and throttle body parts need to be (potentially modified) original parts. Looking at the parts from photos and diagrams, reducing the intake tract diameter to produce stronger pulse would likely loose a ton with poor shapes.

The longer trumpets inside the air box and managing the cross-cylinder Helmholtz resonance effects with air box volume are more feasible paths.

The exhaust is modified stock exhaust. With extra time and money, a full custom exhaust could be made from scratch. The chassis is different from a motorcycle chassis so there’s some obvious improvements one could make, beyond just lengths and diameters.
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Re: 13100 rpm fourbanger restricted to 9300 redline

Post by englertracing »

Sleeve the throttles down? In a concentric fashion?
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Re: 13100 rpm fourbanger restricted to 9300 redline

Post by ptuomov »

englertracing wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:32 am Sleeve the throttles down? In a concentric fashion?
It's a possibility, but I hate the idea of bringing the CSA down upstream given that the intake tract has that S-shape in it. It's a motor-cycle packaging issue. I'd be much less concerned if the intake runner and throttles would simply extend the port straight instead of curving "up".

Compared to many other ports, though, it’s damn straight. Still, I’d want to add more on the short side.
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Re: 13100 rpm fourbanger restricted to 9300 redline

Post by englertracing »

https://youtu.be/RrIbNCwiqkI

Maybe you need to do some in metal for just the port floor.
And even under the secondary throttle, cut the bottom off that butterfly
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Re: 13100 rpm fourbanger restricted to 9300 redline

Post by ptuomov »

englertracing wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:29 pm https://youtu.be/RrIbNCwiqkI

Maybe you need to do some in metal for just the port floor.
And even under the secondary throttle, cut the bottom off that butterfly
That's illegal what they did in the video to the head, but it may be possible to do something like that to the throttle body and have the insert protrude out into the intake port from the throttle body.
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Re: 13100 rpm fourbanger restricted to 9300 redline

Post by johnef »

Changing the surface finish effectively changes the CSA.
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Re: 13100 rpm fourbanger restricted to 9300 redline

Post by ptuomov »

johnef wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:51 pm Changing the surface finish effectively changes the CSA.
In some ways it does, in other ways it does not.
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Re: 13100 rpm fourbanger restricted to 9300 redline

Post by gunt »

Just a quick one from what i have seen on different generations of 1 engine

as the years went on the bhp was higher but so too was the rpm , the newer had way smaller intake valves and ports , it goes completely against general thoughts ,

head gaskets / skim heads play around as it advances/ retards the timing, and no one can say a thing , used here in rallying alot

some of the factory manuals give timing for optimum , as in deg timing on the std pullies , this could have being what you were following :D
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Re: 13100 rpm fourbanger restricted to 9300 redline

Post by johnef »

gunt wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:29 am Just a quick one from what i have seen on different generations of 1 engine

as the years went on the bhp was higher but so too was the rpm , the newer had way smaller intake valves and ports , it goes completely against general thoughts ,

head gaskets / skim heads play around as it advances/ retards the timing, and no one can say a thing , used here in rallying alot

some of the factory manuals give timing for optimum , as in deg timing on the std pullies , this could have being what you were following :D

I can affirm that. The BMW S1000RR in 2015 went with smaller exhaust ports compared to the earlier cylinder head. Torque was improved without losing anything, which backs up what Calvin has been saying all along.

Been meaning to muck about with a very expensive epoxy to play with exhaust ports. From my research it would be good for NA only temperatures.
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Re: 13100 rpm fourbanger restricted to 9300 redline

Post by David Redszus »

johnef wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:51 pm Changing the surface finish effectively changes the CSA.
Yes, but only at certain locations and higher speeds; not measurable on a low pressure flow bench.

Changes in discharge coefficient are often overlooked in the mad pursuit of increased volume flow.
Volume flow does not matter; only mass flow matters.

Blair has demonstrated a wide range of Cd values for various pressure ratios and valve lifts; which are
often overlooked or ignored.
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Re: 13100 rpm fourbanger restricted to 9300 redline

Post by englertracing »

Can you pick and choose what year parts?
For example
Allegedly Smallest ports and valves from newest
Smallest cams from oldest.
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Re: 13100 rpm fourbanger restricted to 9300 redline

Post by ptuomov »

englertracing wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:40 pm Can you pick and choose what year parts?
For example
Allegedly Smallest ports and valves from newest
Smallest cams from oldest.
Can’t, since the service manual doesn’t instruct interchangeability.

However if you can get the head to rust and corrode, you can skim it no problem. And cam sprocket bolt holes that weren’t torqued properly can easily wear to oval shape. Etc.
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