honing question

[Belgian1979]

Need to put together a stock type engine block for tech inspection. I want to deglaze the bores to use new rings. What is the best grit size for this?

[BCjohnny]

Depending on the rings 220 to 280 grit will get you close, although I'd guess some might suggest finer

A ball hone will get into the wear pocket, those random sprung loaded types maybe not so

Any substantial wear and it's all a bit moot anyway .......

[Belgian1979]

Don't know what rings. Guess the original rings that came with the L82 motor.

[BCjohnny]

Guess the original rings that came with the L82 motor

Well, no .... you're 're-ringing' it, so why should they be .......

If they're cheap rebulider cast rings, don't go too fine

If they're Moly faced you can go finer, but 220 will work with relatively no pressure ...... just don't burnish the bore

[Tuner]

If you are using moly rings and the cylinders are run in shiny and smooth, as long as they are not scratched, do not hone them at all.

If you think you absolutely must hone because everybody says so ...

If the cylinder wall is finished smooth enough with 400 or 500 girt stones for the final honing and a little extra love is invested in some polishing there is no breaking in of the rings or walls to do. Moly rings are lapped to a light-tight finish in manufacture and do not require a rough wall for “break in” – “break out” is more like it when the walls are rough. http://www.federal-mogul.com/en/Afterma ... ly-Chrome/

I learned the following tricks from a TRW field rep that came to the speed shop where I worked in 1966 to school the old-time machinist who was finishing walls too rough for the new (at that time) moly rings. I’ve seen many and done every engine that was mine to influence with this procedure ever since and never, ever, had any problem with ring seal or oil control. I’ve had plenty problems with people who wanted to argue about it.

If an old penny (actual copper-not copper plated zinc- pre`79-`80?) can be rubbed on the cylinder wall without removing any copper, it’s smooth enough to be relatively safe but not necessarily smooth as would be ideal. It is my opinion that as smooth as possible isn’t smooth enough.

With a spring loaded three-legged trapezoid type “glaze breaker” hone put duct tape sticky side out over the stones (do a good job of securing the tape behind the stones) and use 400 wet-or-dry paper to polish the cylinders. Put the paper in the cylinder first and let the hone expand into it so the paper sticks to the duct tape. If the cylinder is large, a sheet of paper may have to be cut in half and the haves offset to get full coverage on all three stones. The two pieces have to be overlapped the right direction so they don’t act like a sprag. One way they trail and turn easily and the other they wedge up and jam. Use a ¼ or 3/8 drill motor and trickle water from a hose while you polish. WD 40 is OK but it’s messier and you have to wash with water in the end anyway. A trickle of water flushes the trash away and the paper doesn’t load up as quick. Stroke up and down to generally follow the existing cross-hatch scratches. If you have the patience for it, follow the 400 with 600 and 1000 paper. Naturally, you have to be careful not to tear the paper or let the stones touch the wall and scratch it. I don’t think the walls can be made smooth enough.

400 paper will polish the walls and achieve the “plateau finish” that has been the subject of a lot of mumble over the years and won’t remove enough material to eliminate the crosshatch marks of the stone hone job so there will still be enough oil to keep the “don’t make it too smooth” crowd happy. The surface of the moly ring is full of microscopic fractures that are where the oil molecules hang out, so the wall doesn’t have to be rough.

In the early 70’s when GM released the “Power Manual” with instructions for race engine preparation the advice was to finish with 400 or 500 grit stones for moly rings. The real clue was in the advice against honing or “glaze breaking” when re-ringing an un-damaged cylinder because the reduction in friction with smooth walls realized a significant power increase. In one of the books it was in Italics, they were trying to get the point across but old urban lore dies hard.

Folks who have studied piston and ring friction in laboratory circumstances following scientific method have found the smoothest finish has the least friction. Imagine that? A postulate is the least friction available is found when the surfaces are smoothest (this applies to bearing journals too) because of Coulomb forces. At the atomic level the surface of all matter is an electron cloud. Electrons repel each other because they have the same – charge, sort of like a maglev train but on the atomic level. A smooth surface has the most uniform electron cloud.

I suppose with chrome rings the walls and rings have to grind each other to fit so I guess a rough finish is necessary. I don’t know. I don’t use chrome rings. I have someone whose opinion I trust, he handles it and I don’t worry about it but for moly I think there’s no such thing as too smooth.

This is the exact process that Glidden and the every other Pro Stock engine builder I know are using with the ultra tiny, super thin rings with PVD-Moly face. Most stop with the 600 grit paper. Most hard core SS/ and Stocker racers have done this for as long as I can remember. We abandon it for a long time but came back to it when it proved to be better in testing. Its funny how things come full circle. The penny trick I have not heard of. I will try that.

[David Redszus]

IF your bores are round and straight:
Use a 280 grit ball hone finished with a quick 400 grit ball hone. You need deep grooves with the peaks cut off.

IF your bores are NOT round and straight:
Find a machine shop with a Sunnen (or equivalent), and get them round and straight.

Then go back to step one.

Who sells rings without proper installation information?

[travis]

If you are using moly rings and the cylinders are run in shiny and smooth, as long as they are not scratched, do not hone them at all.

If you think you absolutely must hone because everybody says so ...

If the cylinder wall is finished smooth enough with 400 or 500 girt stones for the final honing and a little extra love is invested in some polishing there is no breaking in of the rings or walls to do. Moly rings are lapped to a light-tight finish in manufacture and do not require a rough wall for “break in” – “break out” is more like it when the walls are rough. http://www.federal-mogul.com/en/Afterma ... ly-Chrome/

I learned the following tricks from a TRW field rep that came to the speed shop where I worked in 1966 to school the old-time machinist who was finishing walls too rough for the new (at that time) moly rings. I’ve seen many and done every engine that was mine to influence with this procedure ever since and never, ever, had any problem with ring seal or oil control. I’ve had plenty problems with people who wanted to argue about it.

If an old penny (actual copper-not copper plated zinc- pre`79-`80?) can be rubbed on the cylinder wall without removing any copper, it’s smooth enough to be relatively safe but not necessarily smooth as would be ideal. It is my opinion that as smooth as possible isn’t smooth enough.

With a spring loaded three-legged trapezoid type “glaze breaker” hone put duct tape sticky side out over the stones (do a good job of securing the tape behind the stones) and use 400 wet-or-dry paper to polish the cylinders. Put the paper in the cylinder first and let the hone expand into it so the paper sticks to the duct tape. If the cylinder is large, a sheet of paper may have to be cut in half and the haves offset to get full coverage on all three stones. The two pieces have to be overlapped the right direction so they don’t act like a sprag. One way they trail and turn easily and the other they wedge up and jam. Use a ¼ or 3/8 drill motor and trickle water from a hose while you polish. WD 40 is OK but it’s messier and you have to wash with water in the end anyway. A trickle of water flushes the trash away and the paper doesn’t load up as quick. Stroke up and down to generally follow the existing cross-hatch scratches. If you have the patience for it, follow the 400 with 600 and 1000 paper. Naturally, you have to be careful not to tear the paper or let the stones touch the wall and scratch it. I don’t think the walls can be made smooth enough.

400 paper will polish the walls and achieve the “plateau finish” that has been the subject of a lot of mumble over the years and won’t remove enough material to eliminate the crosshatch marks of the stone hone job so there will still be enough oil to keep the “don’t make it too smooth” crowd happy. The surface of the moly ring is full of microscopic fractures that are where the oil molecules hang out, so the wall doesn’t have to be rough.

In the early 70’s when GM released the “Power Manual” with instructions for race engine preparation the advice was to finish with 400 or 500 grit stones for moly rings. The real clue was in the advice against honing or “glaze breaking” when re-ringing an un-damaged cylinder because the reduction in friction with smooth walls realized a significant power increase. In one of the books it was in Italics, they were trying to get the point across but old urban lore dies hard.

Folks who have studied piston and ring friction in laboratory circumstances following scientific method have found the smoothest finish has the least friction. Imagine that? A postulate is the least friction available is found when the surfaces are smoothest (this applies to bearing journals too) because of Coulomb forces. At the atomic level the surface of all matter is an electron cloud. Electrons repel each other because they have the same – charge, sort of like a maglev train but on the atomic level. A smooth surface has the most uniform electron cloud.

I suppose with chrome rings the walls and rings have to grind each other to fit so I guess a rough finish is necessary. I don’t know. I don’t use chrome rings. I have someone whose opinion I trust, he handles it and I don’t worry about it but for moly I think there’s no such thing as too smooth.

This is the exact process that Glidden and the every other Pro Stock engine builder I know are using with the ultra tiny, super thin rings with PVD-Moly face. Most stop with the 600 grit paper. Most hard core SS/ and Stocker racers have done this for as long as I can remember. We abandon it for a long time but came back to it when it proved to be better in testing. Its funny how things come full circle. The penny trick I have not heard of. I will try that.

I’ll ask a potentially stupid question, as this is something I normally leave up to the machinist.

On a lightly used engine, would this 400/600/1000 grit technique still leave the cross hatch visible? I’ve pulled some low mileage rebuilds apart to make performance upgrades and the crosshatch is only faintly visible. I’ve never seen oil control issues in these situations...it’s just an observation

[Belgian1979]

If you are using moly rings and the cylinders are run in shiny and smooth, as long as they are not scratched, do not hone them at all.

If you think you absolutely must hone because everybody says so ...

If the cylinder wall is finished smooth enough with 400 or 500 girt stones for the final honing and a little extra love is invested in some polishing there is no breaking in of the rings or walls to do. Moly rings are lapped to a light-tight finish in manufacture and do not require a rough wall for “break in” – “break out” is more like it when the walls are rough. http://www.federal-mogul.com/en/Afterma ... ly-Chrome/

I learned the following tricks from a TRW field rep that came to the speed shop where I worked in 1966 to school the old-time machinist who was finishing walls too rough for the new (at that time) moly rings. I’ve seen many and done every engine that was mine to influence with this procedure ever since and never, ever, had any problem with ring seal or oil control. I’ve had plenty problems with people who wanted to argue about it.

If an old penny (actual copper-not copper plated zinc- pre`79-`80?) can be rubbed on the cylinder wall without removing any copper, it’s smooth enough to be relatively safe but not necessarily smooth as would be ideal. It is my opinion that as smooth as possible isn’t smooth enough.

With a spring loaded three-legged trapezoid type “glaze breaker” hone put duct tape sticky side out over the stones (do a good job of securing the tape behind the stones) and use 400 wet-or-dry paper to polish the cylinders. Put the paper in the cylinder first and let the hone expand into it so the paper sticks to the duct tape. If the cylinder is large, a sheet of paper may have to be cut in half and the haves offset to get full coverage on all three stones. The two pieces have to be overlapped the right direction so they don’t act like a sprag. One way they trail and turn easily and the other they wedge up and jam. Use a ¼ or 3/8 drill motor and trickle water from a hose while you polish. WD 40 is OK but it’s messier and you have to wash with water in the end anyway. A trickle of water flushes the trash away and the paper doesn’t load up as quick. Stroke up and down to generally follow the existing cross-hatch scratches. If you have the patience for it, follow the 400 with 600 and 1000 paper. Naturally, you have to be careful not to tear the paper or let the stones touch the wall and scratch it. I don’t think the walls can be made smooth enough.

400 paper will polish the walls and achieve the “plateau finish” that has been the subject of a lot of mumble over the years and won’t remove enough material to eliminate the crosshatch marks of the stone hone job so there will still be enough oil to keep the “don’t make it too smooth” crowd happy. The surface of the moly ring is full of microscopic fractures that are where the oil molecules hang out, so the wall doesn’t have to be rough.

In the early 70’s when GM released the “Power Manual” with instructions for race engine preparation the advice was to finish with 400 or 500 grit stones for moly rings. The real clue was in the advice against honing or “glaze breaking” when re-ringing an un-damaged cylinder because the reduction in friction with smooth walls realized a significant power increase. In one of the books it was in Italics, they were trying to get the point across but old urban lore dies hard.

Folks who have studied piston and ring friction in laboratory circumstances following scientific method have found the smoothest finish has the least friction. Imagine that? A postulate is the least friction available is found when the surfaces are smoothest (this applies to bearing journals too) because of Coulomb forces. At the atomic level the surface of all matter is an electron cloud. Electrons repel each other because they have the same – charge, sort of like a maglev train but on the atomic level. A smooth surface has the most uniform electron cloud.

I suppose with chrome rings the walls and rings have to grind each other to fit so I guess a rough finish is necessary. I don’t know. I don’t use chrome rings. I have someone whose opinion I trust, he handles it and I don’t worry about it but for moly I think there’s no such thing as too smooth.

This is the exact process that Glidden and the every other Pro Stock engine builder I know are using with the ultra tiny, super thin rings with PVD-Moly face. Most stop with the 600 grit paper. Most hard core SS/ and Stocker racers have done this for as long as I can remember. We abandon it for a long time but came back to it when it proved to be better in testing. Its funny how things come full circle. The penny trick I have not heard of. I will try that.

So just throw in the existing pistons with the old rings in their respective bores ?

[Belgian1979]

IF your bores are round and straight:
Use a 280 grit ball hone finished with a quick 400 grit ball hone. You need deep grooves with the peaks cut off.

IF your bores are NOT round and straight:
Find a machine shop with a Sunnen (or equivalent), and get them round and straight.

Then go back to step one.

Who sells rings without proper installation information?

I don't remember the measurements when I took it apart, but it was fairly worn. No issues with the engine though, just worn. I decided not to rebuild it at the time as starting from a new block was a better and not a whole lot more expensive option.
I suspect it will be out of round.

The reason is just to pass tech inspection with something that is original in specs as a sort of plan B and as soon as it does, the motor comes back out and the current one goes back in.
It did still run decent before I disassembled it at the time, but it is lying in pieces in my (dry) for about 15+ years. Bores do not seem to have any rust in them.

Unfortunately I cannot reuse the heads. The old turbo heads had a crack between the valves in some location (not into the water jacket).

[BillK]

I normally wouldn't say this but for what you are doing and considering the engine was running good before, I would put it back together with the old rings and go for it.

[BCjohnny]

If you are using moly rings and the cylinders are run in shiny and smooth, as long as they are not scratched, do not hone them at all.

I put that in my second reply ..... then scratched it

The OPs cylinders are likely needing more than a 'refreshen' ...... but stick a hundred machinists in a room and ask the question about re-ring honing and you're likely to get at least a hundred different answers

There's just no absolute 'right' way to do it, just opinions

[Belgian1979]

I normally wouldn't say this but for what you are doing and considering the engine was running good before, I would put it back together with the old rings and go for it.

Seems like it. Hopefully it won't smoke too much oil so it won't pass either.

[modok]

If the bores are a bit quesionable for size/taper..... cast rings are best choice, IF cast rings work for those pistons.
The recommended conventional grit will be somewhere between 180 and 280 to de-glaze it
You CAn go over it with a step or two finer, to plateau it...always a good idea, just don't over-do that.

[David Redszus]

The OPs cylinders are likely needing more than a 'refreshen' ...... but stick a hundred machinists in a room and ask the question about re-ring honing and you're likely to get at least a hundred different answers

Why would i ask a machinist about re-ringing an engine? If there are a hundred different answers, only one is the right answer. Why not ask the piston/ring manufacturer? Or a trained engineer?

There's just no absolute 'right' way to do it, just opinions

Well of course there is; the engineering solution; which should be based on physics and extensive testing,
not opinion or mere limited experience.

The science of dynamic sealing has come a long way since the days of rough honing and letting the rings to wear in.

[Belgian1979]

I'm going to give it a go and just through the respective pistons and old rings in their respective bores and see what happens.

When looking at parts on Summit seems that the gasket sets are out of order for a number of months...Jesus...none of them seem to have any stock anymore