Timing chain wear on engines with non-adjustable ignition timing

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ProPower engines
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Re: Timing chain wear on engines with non-adjustable ignition timing

Post by ProPower engines »

travis wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:15 pm The MAF reads .70-.71 lb/m with random spikes up to .75-.80 at warm idle. At a steady no load 1500 rpms it reads a steady 2.39 lb/m +/- .02.

MAP reads a steady 9.7” HG at idle, no spikes at all. About 8.9” at a steady no load 1500 rpms, again no spikes.

Ignition timing at idle jumps all over the place between 20* and 24.5*. It’s a rock solid 28* at steady no load 1500 rpms.
I see this all the time and not just the GM stuff.
With a computer controlled engine the timing will jump around a lot based on environmental and mechanical conditions that happen so fast and so many times a second to give the very most optimum running conditions. And you see this more on a scanner with no load among other things.
It will seem that vacuum signal controls everything and when it gets out of whats called normal operating parameters which is a very wide margin when it comes down to it to allow the engine to run as designed..........smoothly.

That said water temp exhaust temp ambient air temp mass air flowing into the engine all play a part in the constant adjusts made by the ECM to control the engines idle or power under load from 1st start up through warm up till at operating temperature and so on.

The hard codes trigger the light to stay on soft codes the ECM can work around are the issues that are hard to nail down but good old fashioned diagnostic methods allow us to go through each part of the system but some times ya got to think out side that box back to the days before ECM control.

EG
A rough running idle condition may not trip a code to tell you its the MAP or MAF sensor causing the rich idle condition but an O2 sensor could do it if it does not go through open and closed loop fast enough or slow enough if it is a heated type of sensor. The older TBI engines in GM trucks used a single O2 sensor as well as 2 different temp sensors for the block water temp and the other to operate the dash gauge and while they are not directly linked together they will set a code if unplugged 1 soft and 1 hard code.
While resetting just required the engine off for 30 seconds then the soft code would be gone but the hard code for the water temp disconnection will need a scanner reset to clear and turn of the light.

It could be a dripping injector not enough fuel to trip a code but just enough to create a correcting of the AIM to raise the idle a bit.

Go back to basic's and think about a carbed engine and figure it out 1 step at a time how to fix it.
Then looking at your present engine's issue and figure out what you missed.

But the most over looked area's to check are the ground wires.
They get dirty over time and the system voltage signals are much lower compared to older engines and dirty grounds account for a very high percentage of mis-diagnosed running conditions on today's engines.
Kind of like with a carb the 1st item to check is the fuel filter with an ECM controlled engines be sure all the grounds are intact and clean.
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Re: Timing chain wear on engines with non-adjustable ignition timing

Post by dannobee »

Yup, ground wires, especially the one by the t-stat on the L31. One more thing that came up once in awhile was that the injectors were sometimes installed in the wrong cylinder. There was a bulletin on it years ago. Especially when updated to the new style injector spider and the installer wasn't careful when putting the injectors in.
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Re: Timing chain wear on engines with non-adjustable ignition timing

Post by naukkis79 »

travis wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:15 pm The MAF reads .70-.71 lb/m with random spikes up to .75-.80 at warm idle. At a steady no load 1500 rpms it reads a steady 2.39 lb/m +/- .02.

MAP reads a steady 9.7” HG at idle, no spikes at all. About 8.9” at a steady no load 1500 rpms, again no spikes.

Ignition timing at idle jumps all over the place between 20* and 24.5*. It’s a rock solid 28* at steady no load 1500 rpms.
So what exactly is the problem? Idle rpm is regulated with ignition timing, idle air valve is too slow to react to fast rpm changes so idle rpm is regulated with ignition timing, ecu pulls timing when it wants reduce rpm and adds timing when it wants to increase rpm, target is to keep engine at spec idle rpm. If idle air control valve is worn or stuck that timing variation grows - also happens with vacuum leaks and other mechanical problems in engine.
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Re: Timing chain wear on engines with non-adjustable ignition timing

Post by naukkis79 »

travis wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:58 pm I certainly don’t fully understand how all the different sensors and what not interact with each other. However, if the timing chain is flopping around, would that not still affect the cam position sensor? So even if the crank position sensor triggers the ignition when to fire, if the rotor isn’t in the right place...
As crank makes two revolutions per one revolution of cam cam position sensor only tells to ecu whether crank is in round 1 or round 2 relative to cam. It is needed to know for coil on plug systems to fire right coil without wasted spark - and for sequential injection to get fuel sprayed to right cylinder.

Distributor only needs to be in right cylinder on possible ignition timing, there's no need for cam position sensor with distributor. But if it's there for sequential injection it can be used to check that distributor is in right position.
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Re: Timing chain wear on engines with non-adjustable ignition timing

Post by naukkis79 »

One example of unstable idle comes to mind - tpi and old LT1-engines have throttle body that has it's axle directly attached to aluminium body, and minimum idle air is controlled with idle stop screw preventing throttle to shut totally. When that axle wears it's support holes that throttle body starts to act weirdly, increasing vacuum will decrease airflow and decreased vacuum will increase airflow. Together that with lambda fuel oscillation will get engine to continuously increase and decrease it's idle rpm as ECU isn't able to stabilize it anymore. Maybe L31 has that same throttle body or similar throttle body wear problems?
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Re: Timing chain wear on engines with non-adjustable ignition timing

Post by travis »

I suspected that the idle timing moving around was normal to keep the idle stable...just wasn’t sure.

The problem is that it sputters/surges under light to medium throttle...but only with the MAF connected. It’s a bit down on power and and the exhaust note definitely has a softer tone to it at idle or any speed. It doesn’t sputter at heavy throttle, but again it feels down on power.

I’m going to go do some more troubleshooting before it starts raining again...
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Re: Timing chain wear on engines with non-adjustable ignition timing

Post by travis »

This thing is driving me nucking futs!!!

It’s behaving somewhat differently today. I hooked up the scan tool and set it to record, and took it for a drive. Stopped after a few miles to unhook the MAF so I could record the data with the MAF unhooked, and it died (never done that before). It fired right back up...I took off down the road with the MAF disconnected and now it’s sputtering and surging lightly as well (never done that before either).

The ST and LT fuel trims look good. Never above 15% and that’s only with fairly heavy acceleration. Light throttle cruise the ST trims are in the -1 to 5 range (still surging). Ignition timing is within the ballpark according to data sent to me by a member here that does this for a living.

But now I have to wonder if today’s testing is giving me a clue. It’s mid 80’s and extremely humid today...and acting considerably different than recent data scanning with slightly lower temps and much less humidity.

Still no codes thrown. I guess tomorrow I’ll pull and inspect plugs and recheck fuel pressure again. And clean all the grounds.
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Re: Timing chain wear on engines with non-adjustable ignition timing

Post by rebelrouser »

Having worked on vehicles since 1974, I have had more than a few drive me nuts, got one in the shop right now.

The distributor must be set using a scan tool, if you have the engine I think you do. You bring it to a fast idle and rotate the distributor until it is a zero and then lock it down. that code seldom gives any driveability issues. And I have had to grind a little on the distributors to get them to come in sometimes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPlYNtNkI9k this is how you do it.

All GM injected engines that have a mass air flow sensor, also have speed density tables in them as well, so if you unhook the MAF it will still run, and if it runs better, that is a quick check to see if the MAF is bad. Quick way to check them is to record on a scan tool how many grams per second at WOT, and there are calculators on line to tell you if those numbers are in the ball park.

https://www.otctools.com/ve
I use this one.
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Re: Timing chain wear on engines with non-adjustable ignition timing

Post by travis »

Well, it’s definitely not the timing chain...that thing is as tight as a brand new one.

The plugs look funky though. Around the thread base looks like it was running rich (thick black powdery deposits), but the straps look like they was lean and/or too hot (almost white). And then there’s these 2...what’s up with the rust??
1339CCBF-3C6E-4B30-B795-9B123A6B3F09.jpeg
FBD34A99-8650-4DDE-94B6-7FC4E0CD8080.jpeg

Drivers side bank plugs are definitely darker than the other bank.

I went ahead and went and went through the valves, nothing really out of place there but a few was definitely tighter than I run them.
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Re: Timing chain wear on engines with non-adjustable ignition timing

Post by travis »

rebelrouser wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:14 pm
The distributor must be set using a scan tool
Can it still be wrong, if it isn’t throwing a trouble code?
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Re: Timing chain wear on engines with non-adjustable ignition timing

Post by naukkis79 »

travis wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:02 pm 1339CCBF-3C6E-4B30-B795-9B123A6B3F09.jpeg

FBD34A99-8650-4DDE-94B6-7FC4E0CD8080.jpeg
From that picture it seems like there's excessive gap in plugs. With too much gap in plug there will be missfiring when voltage requirement is high - like when A/F is lean and ignition timing is low - in mild acceleration....
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Re: Timing chain wear on engines with non-adjustable ignition timing

Post by travis »

naukkis79 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:25 pm
travis wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:02 pm 1339CCBF-3C6E-4B30-B795-9B123A6B3F09.jpeg

FBD34A99-8650-4DDE-94B6-7FC4E0CD8080.jpeg
From that picture it seems like there's excessive gap in plugs. With too much gap in plug there will be missfiring when voltage requirement is high - like when A/F is lean and ignition timing is low - in mild acceleration....
They are .055”...it calls for .060” but I thought a hair tighter might make it easier to fire
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Re: Timing chain wear on engines with non-adjustable ignition timing

Post by naukkis79 »

travis wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:11 pm They are .055”...it calls for .060” but I thought a hair tighter might make it easier to fire
Try .040 or even .030. Those big gaps works when whole ignition system is perfect but they are pretty much guarantee for missfires when ignition parts aren't perfect anymore.
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