Question for those who build and sell engines

[travis]

I apologize if this is the wrong place to post this.

What do you guys do to protect yourself financially from...to be blunt about it...idiots?

I built an engine for a kid several months ago that could have ended really badly for me. Nothing was done wrong on my end, and thankfully I was able to squash it, but it really opened my eyes.

The kid screwed up the install (didn’t properly seat the converter) and promptly destroyed his brand new trans...then came after me for damages.

I’ve been doing this as a hobby for a long time, and have never gone through anything like this. As a result of this situation, and a number of recent issues with other customers, I’m only building engines for myself or people that I really know. But my question is...what if this would have ended up in court? Even though though this clearly wasn’t my fault, this could have ended up costing several $$thousands$$ in legal fees, court costs, etc.

How do you protect yourself from BS like this???

[HDBD]

Sorry to be cynical but I did the same many years ago. Helping a relative. The judge sided with the guy that helped me that owned a shop even though he totally screwed up a Porsche engine. I had to pay for a top end kit and labor at the end of the day then I was sued by him in small claims for a job he didn't even complete, a tweaker I find out. 7 years the judgement stayed on my record.

[PackardV8]

Answer is, you can't. It's a shame and a disgrace, but in this wonderful country, anyone can sue anyone over anything. There isn't enough money in hobby engine building to be worth the grief.

As a result of this situation, and a number of recent issues with other customers, I’m only building engines for myself or people that I really know.

You don't know them as well as you think you do. Since they won't admit the problem was their fault, it's going to be your fault.

My machinist built a simple Chevy 250" 6-cyl long block for a relative. They complained about low oil pressure. When we got the engine back for analysis, there were huge goops of silicone sealer squeezed outside the side cover plates and the oil pan. We knew without looking the oil pump screen would be plugged. Clean it all up, new bearings as a precaution, reinstall the tin without all their goop. Figure six hours of shop time, fifty bucks in bearings and he did absolutely nothing wrong other than do an idiot relative a favor.

[rebelrouser]

I been fixing cars since 1974, worked at a dealer, owned my own shop, and worked for a shop. Also taught at a Tech School and we did live work with the students. In all those times I went to court twice, and won both cases. First my tickets in my shop plainly state high performance work by it's very nature has no warranty. Period end of story. And you are right, I try and pick my customers, even if they don't sue you, it still reflects on your reputation if they go to the races and their stuff is always blowing up. Last year I told two brothers, that I no longer would do work for them. I did them a set of heads, wrote out the steps to properly check piston to valve, etc. I even offered for them to bring the engine to my shop, and I would just watch them put it together and help when they needed it. Free of Charge. Yep they screwed it, got a call if I had any 440 rocker shafts, I asked why? They broke one trying to put it together, all down hill after that.

But if you do have to go to court I will give this advice, and I got paid to be a professional witness in three cases, investigated one of them start to finish. Don't go to court alone, bring another shop owner, or machinist from another shop as a professional witness to help you with telling the story. You got to remember judges know nothing about working on vehicles, and I am sure many of them hold a grudge from big repair bills sometime in their life. Do your research, and bring shop manual info to back up your claims. I brought a model differential to explain to the court how spider gears work. I had a teenager destroy the spider gears in a front wheel transaxle in an ice storm. I had the freeze frame data from a scan tool, trans was in manual low, engine 5,000 rpm and vehicle moving 5 MPH. Boom went the spider gears right through the side of the case.

[hoodeng]

The million dollar question!
Who pays for what? How did the customer come at you given that you had no part in the area that was damaged? How did he read your build into the ensuing damage?

You can not identify stupid customers easily, some sharp guys don't look sharp, some of the dumbest i have encountered have had the looks and build of a serious pro [whatever that is?] some guys come across with serious tech speak, some have trouble articulating what they are telling you in a trade sense.. This guy can be a good customer as at the end of the day he was actually capable of performing what he is told to do. The tech speak guy can be the opposite, all the right words and posture, delve a little deeper and its all show and youtube speak.

One thing i do is take photos and get a detailed job note under way at the start and in front of the customer,[if they are doing business over the phone get them to email their requirements] as a job arrives ["yeah mate the crank pickup was in there when i delivered it"] during the machining process, if something becomes evident whilst machining, take a photo and shoot it of to the owner with the message " i need you to drop over now", do not let this situation go stale to the point you are singing for your supper months down the track.
At layout for assembly, it's all there to see. And on completion, then fire the lot off in an email with a photo of the final invoice that becomes due on delivery.

In my situation i don't take deposits and i don't give credit full stop. The only time i take a deposit is when the cost of a job exceeds its disposal value, there are guys out there that will throw thousands at a mortally compromised junker, when you tell them the prognosis of a good outcome is poor to bad and they insist on that engine being done because it means something to them, go ahead but get it in writing and include the prognosis. There are instances where you will turn work away because it is either a vintage headache, or you get a sense the customer has rose colored glasses on, or as you have identified 'an idiot'.

Cheers, and good luck.

[tblentrprz]

Document expectations, then meet/exceed them. On engines/trans deals best to have dyno results/video to validate performance/results. This may not be an option for a home builder unless you have a relationship with a local/quality dyno operator. On carry out deals, get a signed liability release form (i.e. no warranty) since you have no idea how things are going to go. Hope this helps.

[F-BIRD'88]

Double your prices..

[HDBD]

In my case, with proof and evidence of the problems caused by the shop, the judge sided with the shop stating I was stupid to engage the help of a part timer without a legitimate business.

[Walter R. Malik]

You have to be far sighted enough to refuse some work from those you recognize as IDIOTS.

I realized this some 30 years ago when I built an engine for a guy to put in his Corvette. He insisted upon a hi-volume oil pump. On a cold day during the Winter, he started his car in his garage to get it warm. He went back inside the house to let it run. Well, it broke the tang off the oil pump shaft and locked-up the engine. He took the matter to court after I would not rebuild it again for free.
What you can not protect yourself from is IDIOT judges who make you pay for a situation which is clearly not your doing.

[MELWAY]

You have to be far sighted enough to refuse some work from those you recognize as IDIOTS.

I realized this some 30 years ago when I built an engine for a guy to put in his Corvette. He insisted upon a hi-volume oil pump. On a cold day during the Winter, he started his car in his garage to get it warm. He went back inside the house to let it run. Well, it broke the tang off the oil pump shaft and locked-up the engine. He took the matter to court after I would not rebuild it again for free.
What you can not protect yourself from is IDIOT judges who make you pay for a situation which is clearly not your doing.

Exactly. I have had a lot of dizzy gear failurrs at some point and I traced it back to some point that my guys were using a 20w-60 that had same. Centipoke numbers as a straight 50w oil and they were driving them around in 10c weather or colder

[Lizardracing]

My engine guy has a statement that he will do HIS way or not at all. Your choice....His stuff doesn't blow up.

[F-BIRD'88]

Any guy that wants an engine built for his Corvette is a →Red Flag ←

[stealth]

This is part of the reason "real shops" have to payout big money for "shop insurance"... this protects the business from issues like this too...

Overhead sucks...

[novafornow]

I have done the part time at home stuff for years. Been fairly lucky I guess. Only remember one problem. Guy overheated and cooked a new engine. Water pump or radiator problem, can't remember. I took it back in, disassembled, paid for needed machine work, and handed him back everything in a box. Told him that he could have whoever he wanted do the job, but i would not. It was worth the expense to me to save my reputation.

[PackardV8]

I have done the part time at home stuff for years. Been fairly lucky I guess. Only remember one problem. Guy overheated and cooked a new engine. Water pump or radiator problem, can't remember. I took it back in, disassembled, paid for needed machine work, and handed him back everything in a box. Told him that he could have whoever he wanted do the job, but i would not. It was worth the expense to me to save my reputation.

That's why most rebuilders install heat tabs. At one time, my machinist had long block customers sign that any warranty claims had to be accompanied by receipts for a new water pump, oil cooler and radiator, dated prior to picking up the engine.